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Thread: Archon And Lurker Changes

  1. #111
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    Default Re: Archon And Lurker Changes

    In the Lurker Tier 2 debate: how about switching the Lurker and the Mutalisk? That way, you could have AOE incentive to Fast tech to Lair, AND just use the Siege Range research later, in order to make your remaining Lurkers useful.

    Having a Tier 3 Mutalisk doesn't remove any of it's usefulness, as There are no more timing windows.

  2. #112

    Default Re: Archon And Lurker Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas View Post
    Even in its introduction, the very zenith of its power, the Mothership was not a powerful combat unit. Without its abilities, it simply wouldn't be very viable in battle. Not for its cost.
    On it's own. It can't fight an army single-handedly. But it's clearly intended to be one of the tougher units in the game. Cost-for-cost. But we'll see.

    So, we shouldn't assume the Mothership has Temporal Rift and Vortex. Or that it can teleport. Or that it has had its model improved. Or that it even exists.
    We have news from different events and things confirming the existence of those abilities. And then Blizzard has advertised the Mothership's use of those spells as well. But they obviously didn't release that video and go 'oh, and now the Mothership takes over three hits to kill a Hydralisk'. Knowing what a spell DOES from a video is one thing, knowing how much damage a spell does from a video is quite another. (Or unit, in this case.)

    Not for a unit that can't move while it's shooting. You need to be able to first strike while still being able to get a second shot off before they kill you with their first shot.
    7 range is still enough to get a first shot in, and keep your distance. I don't really know what you're looking for/expecting here. Colossus, Lurker and Ghost would all be good units with 7 range. I mean there's a REASON that the Brood Lord (and the Reaver and Carrier for that matter) is unbelievably slow and the Siege Tank needing to be immobile in order to attack from such a long range.

    To me, the most important and effective part of the Lurker is its linear attack.
    That's part of it, to be sure. But I think, in part, it's about what makes the unit worth bringing back. Rather than inventing something new. I'd say the linear attack AND the attack-while-burrowed mechanics are equally important in that regard.

    Without its linear AoE, all the cloak and dagger games in the world don't matter, because it can't kill much with a single-target attack.
    Well, I don't disagree that the linear AoE attack is a key part of it's appeal, but it's not that it COULDN'T kill stuff with a single-target attack. I mean the Dark Templar seems to get by. But er, yes, I do agree that the linear splash attack is a very key element of the Lurker.

    And the range increase makes the linear AoE attack that much more damaging. It allows you to use other units to bait enemy units closer, without exposing your Lurkers to potential fire.
    It does, but at the cost of the tension of putting your Lurker into jeopardy, which makes the burrow-attack kinda null and void. I guess I consider this a bad thing and you think it's a good thing. I guess my point is that at 7-range it still HAS a linear-splash attack, and it's still very powerful. But at 9 range and tier 3 the burrow-attack is pretty superfluous.


    Nonsense. You can do anything to a unit. It may no longer be called the same thing, just as the Marauder is no longer called a Firebat even though it evolved from one.
    Okay, there's nothing REASONABLE they could do to it to make it a good tier 2 unit and still call it and have it be what we've come to know as the Roach.

    Also, I would be very concerned about a unit that becomes utterly worthless at Tier 2. Which is pretty much what happened to the T1 Roach.
    The tier 1 Roach wasn't useless at tier 2, it's just like the Hydralisk/Zergling at tier 2. It becomes devalued. If some of those GStar videos are to be believed, the Roach actually moves pretty fast, and does okay DPS. I think it'd be a great unit at tier 1, instead of a good unit at tier 2. But, again, we'll see how things go.

    No, actually; that's just a typo. I meant to say, "I find actually usable unit combos..." As interesting as using Motherships and Immortals may be, it simply isn't as economically viable as mass Colossi.
    I never meant it was. What I meant to say was that Temporal Rift + Immortals are a perfectly viable way to eliminate static defenses. Maybe not AS viable as a roaming death-army of colossi, but still a perfectly viable way of doing things. And a much more fun and dynamic way of doing things than simply attack-moving the static defenses to death.

    If Immortals were still at on Gateways, maybe. But not with them on Robos.
    Eh, well I kinda hope they go back to the Gateway anyway, but... well, again, we'll see what happens.

    About the Lurker debate;
    I think one should remember that just because unit X had role Y in SC1, does not mean it will still have Y in SC2, even though it might share the name or the appearance.
    Well, of course not, but it still should resemble what it was in the original StarCraft. Otherwise they should just make an entirely new unit.

    In the Lurker Tier 2 debate: how about switching the Lurker and the Mutalisk? That way, you could have AOE incentive to Fast tech to Lair, AND just use the Siege Range research later, in order to make your remaining Lurkers useful.
    Ugh, no. I don't like siege-range Lurker period. And the Mutalisk wouldn't be nearly as useful a unit at tier 3. Plus Zerg would still be lacking in the 'good tier 2 combat units' department.


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  3. #113
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    Default Re: Archon And Lurker Changes

    Nearly as useful at what, exactly?

  4. #114

    Default Re: Archon And Lurker Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyofTerra View Post
    Nearly as useful at what, exactly?
    Themselves at tier 2?

    It's just too late for a unit with 120 health.


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  5. #115
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    Default Re: Archon And Lurker Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
    Themselves at tier 2?

    It's just too late for a unit with 120 health.
    That could be altered. In fact, not dying as quickly might make the Mutalisk worth it's cost as a combat unit.

  6. #116

    Default Re: Archon And Lurker Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyofTerra View Post
    That could be altered. In fact, not dying as quickly might make the Mutalisk worth it's cost as a combat unit.
    But then what do the Zerg use as a basic air fighter?


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  7. #117
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    Default Re: Archon And Lurker Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
    But then what do the Zerg use as a basic air fighter?
    Why do they need one?

  8. #118

    Default Re: Archon And Lurker Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyofTerra View Post
    Why do they need one?
    Why wouldn't they need one...? The other two races have one. Tier 3 Mutalisk would just be strange in my opinion.

    At this point I honestly think Brood Lord + Ultralisk are decisive and powerful enough to make Zerg tier 3 cool. Maybe kinda bare, but cool enough. If they have a plethora of hive upgrades in addition to those two units. (Adrenal Glands, Organic Carapace, something for the Hydralisk, maybe one of the Infester's abilities could require hive tech) then I think Hive-tech is fine. But that's just my personal opinion.
    Last edited by Aldrius; 02-15-2010 at 04:58 PM.


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  9. #119
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    Default Re: Archon And Lurker Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
    Why wouldn't they need one...? The other two races have one. Tier 3 Mutalisk would just be strange in my opinion.
    Zerg don't need cliff-climbers. Correct? Then why would a basic air unit be that important? Also, what are the "basic air units" for the other 2 races? The Phoenix isn't all that potent at fighting ground, unless massed enormously. It can be argued that the Corruptor is comparable, as it brings spellcasting to the table instead. The Viking is more of a basic air unit, but that alone doesn't make it necessary for Zerg to have one.

  10. #120

    Default Re: Archon And Lurker Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyofTerra View Post
    Zerg don't need cliff-climbers. Correct?
    They can't not have cliff-climbers AND not have a basic air unit. Jeez, man.

    Then why would a basic air unit be that important? Also, what are the "basic air units" for the other 2 races? The Phoenix isn't all that potent at fighting ground, unless massed enormously.
    It can fight ground. But the Protoss don't need the Phoenix to attack ground as much as the Zerg need the Mutalisk to attack ground.

    It can be argued that the Corruptor is comparable, as it brings spellcasting to the table instead. The Viking is more of a basic air unit, but that alone doesn't make it necessary for Zerg to have one.
    Yes it does. The Zerg can't lack any sort of decent air-to-ground power until tier 3... that'd be awful.


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