Archon And Lurker Changes

[Operatoring]

I hate the idea of T1 Roaches, but I have to say this. I love how you assume the Collosus will have perfect Micro and the Roaches will have shit Micro. Any self respecting Zerg player will try and draw the Collosus out, or intercept it before it reaches there base. They don't start in your base, they have to traverse open ground before the make it. The correct way to fight a collosus is on open terrain when they are trying to make it to a cliff. You swarm under them because they don't have collision and destroy it. Kind of how you kill a Corsair in SC1 with mutas. You don't leave them bunched up, you spread them out around the Corsair.

[Nicol Bolas]

Okay. So how the hell do the Zergling, Zealot, Stalker, Hydralisk, Marine, Marauder, etc. manage then?

Because they aren't build around regeneration. The Roach is built around this particular mechanic: a fast-regenerating Zerg unit.

Stalkers are built around Blink. Blink is always useful. Marauders are built around their high Hp and stunning effect. Those are always useful. Marines are built around huge damage output with range. Zealots, around speed and high Hp. Zerglings, around utterly ridiculous damage output and the weight of numbers. And so on. These are things that are always intrinsically useful, from Tier 1 to the bottom of the tech tree.

Regen is not always useful. Indeed, once a certain damage threshold has been reached, regen becomes useless. This is why the Tier 1 Roach became useless at Tier 2; it's main reason for existing became useless. If you can one-shot Roaches, their special ability means nothing.

100 Hp is about the legitimate maximum for a fast regenerating unit at Tier 1. If you go much beyond 100 Hp, you get a unit that is too durable to be killed by anything in the early game. There simply aren't enough Marines/Zealots/Stalkers/etc to break their regeneration fast enough. They're too good for their cost. Either that, or you automatically force the enemy to go for a certain tech pattern in order to survive.

At Tier 2, things change. 100 Hp is a pittance. Marauders patrol the map in devastating groups. 6 Marauders can 1-shot Roaches quick and easy. 10 Stalkers is enough to do it. The unit becomes useless. Plus, flying units come into play.

The 170 Hp current Tier 2 Roach can at least put up a decent fight. It takes 17 Stalkers to one-shot them and 9 Marauders. For their 100 mineral cost, they're decent damage absorbers. Not that someone using Stalkers will bother to kill them if there is any other target around, but there is at least the possibility. Just from 170 Hp.

The Tier 3 regen upgrade is likewise utterly useless for the Tier 3 Roach. Dealing 100 damage to a single unit is expected at Tier 3. From sheer firepower alone, 100 Hp isn't even close to enough.

[Aldrius]

Then why not make the HP regen upgrade also come with a flat HP upgrade as well. Maybe a 50 HP boost, in exchange for a slightly smaller HP regen boost. If the issue is it's HP and not it's damage or movement speed.

[flabortast]

I really like the acid spore idea with the roach. It makes it a great support and tank unit.

[Nicol Bolas]

Then why not make the HP regen upgrade also come with a flat HP upgrade as well.

That does nothing for the uselessness of the Tier 1 Roach at Tier 2. By the time you reach Tier 3, all of your Roaches will have been killed and not replaced (since you'll have tech switched to something that's useful at Tier 2).

Furthermore, unless gas is something you're simply not able to get, why would anyone get Roaches when Ultralisks are available?

Also, if you're having to create an upgrade for a unit that does multiple things just to make the unit usable, that strongly suggests that there is something fundamentally wrong with the unit itself. If giving a regen-based unit more regen isn't enough to make it useful later in the game, then it would probably be better to realize that a regen-based unit isn't a good idea period.

[ArcherofAiur]

Nerf Roaches.

[Aldrius]

That does nothing for the uselessness of the Tier 1 Roach at Tier 2. By the time you reach Tier 3, all of your Roaches will have been killed and not replaced (since you'll have tech switched to something that's useful at Tier 2).

I don't think they're all that useless at tier 2. And if they are, they can up their HP at tier 1 then. But I don't think being countered by a specific unit suddenly makes the Roach useless... Hellions are utterly destroyed by Stalkers and Marauders too. Granted Hellions aren't intended to absorb fire the way Roaches are, but at the same time, 10 Stalker hits or 6 Marauders hits is A LOT of fire-power to kill a single unit.

Furthermore, unless gas is something you're simply not able to get, why would anyone get Roaches when Ultralisks are available?

The regeneration, extra damage against biological targets, they're ranged, they're cheaper. I don't know. This is something I'd need to play the actual game for.

Also, if you're having to create an upgrade for a unit that does multiple things just to make the unit usable, that strongly suggests that there is something fundamentally wrong with the unit itself. If giving a regen-based unit more regen isn't enough to make it useful later in the game, then it would probably be better to realize that a regen-based unit isn't a good idea period.

No it wouldn't. An HP boost increases it's regen THRESHOLD. They could cut the unit's regeneration upgrade and just give it a flat HP upgrade. If the problem is that it's too easy to kill so it can't actually regenerate, then an HP upgrade will help more in that case than an HP regeneration upgrade.

And if regen-based units are a bad idea, then they really should get rid of that med-evac thing. It doesn't heal anything with more than 125HP. And only one at a time!! By that logic the self-healing 160/170 HP Roach is incredibly superior. At least as far as regeneration goes. Even if it's not as offensively powerful as the Marine/Marauder/etc.