Idea: Particle Path (Protoss Macro Mechanic)

[flak4321]

I'm posting this separately as it was an additional thought: Warcraft and Age of Empires each allow multiple workers to build a building, with WC at a minor additional resource cost per second. Why couldn't something similar work here? Terrans would be a straight copy, Zerg would be a partial copy wherein the additional drones could be made to "manipulate the growth" of the building while one drone would still be sacrificed, and Protoss would simply have multiple probes initiate the warp-in for a speed bonus. In addition, Protoss would now have a reason to over produce probes for an expansion, albeit a minor one. Or we could just implement Blade's original Protoss suggestion in this one's place.

[ArcherofAiur]

OK ill wade in here. IMHO The speed boost mechanics you guys are talking about would be much more suited from research speed rather than building speed. Speeding up building speed, in addition to speeding up research speeds, also impacts defensive buildings, expansions, and unit production.

A much more focused approach is to give a race the ability speed up research speeds. This can be checked by the absolute building speeds of the research buildings. This allows you to create a tailored system where the player has to make choices about which research to boost without leading to things like fast tower rushs. Researching historically has rarely been "fleshed out" to its true potential, something which I believe makes it hard for new players to engage and learn and have fun with this portion of the game.

I am currently working on a proposal where multiple queens can speed zerg research much like WC3 humans peasant building.

[flak4321]

A much more focused approach is to give a race the ability speed up research speeds. This can be checked by the absolute building speeds of the research buildings. This allows you to create a tailored system where the player has to make choices about which research to boost without leading to things like fast tower rushs. Researching historically has rarely been "fleshed out" to its true potential, something which I believe makes it hard for new players to engage and learn and have fun with this portion of the game.

Interesting. I will admit that a more focused ability can be more effective and easier to balance. More focus means less variables to deal with, usually. I like the research focus here as it is something I would definitely use, if only to open strategic options sooner.

I could see this benefitting each race if done correctly. I could see some abuses/excessive uses also. Example: a weak player would have to learn/adopt a more aggressive playstyle if his/her tier 1 units keep getting nuked before his/her tier 2 is reached. Not that this means the research speed up is OP, just used better by one player than another.

[Triceron]

Macro abilities should be situational and not affect permanency. The common theme between all Macro abilities is that it's all relative and temporary. Even Spawn Larvae is not permanent, and the mechanic is a balance factor to other races having increased production methods (Terran Reactors, Protoss Warp Gates). Researches are permanent, and once you're finished all research, you have no use for the macro ability.

I'd rather see Zerg get something that's practical throughout the entire game. I'm also against putting an emphasis on quick research as an advantage. The few seconds you save off getting attack upgrade 1 or zergling move speed isn't going to help a whole lot in the full scope of the game unless you're intentionally rushing.

There are many factors against this idea that I just don't agree with. It's a unique take, but it's not a compelling cyclic function. It's like giving units more abilities that can only be used once.

[ArcherofAiur]

Macro abilities should be situational and not affect permanency. The common theme between all Macro abilities is that it's all relative and temporary. Even Spawn Larvae is not permanent, and the mechanic is a balance factor to other races having increased production methods (Terran Reactors, Protoss Warp Gates). Researches are permanent, and once you're finished all research, you have no use for the macro ability.

Researches are permanent but their are many upgrades. In that same line of thought mining is permanent because you can run out of minerals.

I'd rather see Zerg get something that's practical throughout the entire game. I'm also against putting an emphasis on quick research as an advantage. The few seconds you save off getting attack upgrade 1 or zergling move speed isn't going to help a whole lot in the full scope of the game unless you're intentionally rushing.

Faster research is practical throughout the game and can in many situations be extremely benificial. Just ask the guy who was prediciting speed ultralisks while protoss still has stalkers

[Triceron]

Which is a problem, not a tactical strategy.

It's the same problem the Soul Hunter faced, where it gets a permanent upgrade after killing 3 units. It's a unique feature, but it's not a compelling gameplay mechanic considering A: The mechanic doesn't change how you use the unit and B: The damage gap between new units and veteran units makes balance more difficult.

Like I said, the speed researching doesn't do much to affect the game as a whole - UNLESS you're planning on a rush. This affects rush strategies much more, and in effect, you're promoting rush/speed tech tactics.


Let me pose a question - Is there any legitimate reason not to use your Macro ability when you plan to research an ability? And I don't mean a bullshit excuse like "Because the queens used up all their energy lol"

[ArcherofAiur]

Let me pose a question - Is there any legitimate reason not to use your Macro ability when you plan to research an ability? And I don't mean a bullshit excuse like "Because the queens used up all their energy lol"

Thats not a bulshit excuse at all. Your sacrificing additional larva (which is key) for faster researching. This is especially important because of scaling. Faster research is much more valuable the earlier in the game but so are additional larva.

[Triceron]

That's ONLY if you consider Spawn Larvae a priority over research abilities. If this is is so, then your Macro idea fails, because the player is still choosing Spawn Larvae as a priority over a speed boost on a PERMANENT UPGRADE.

Otherwise, people would prioritize the Research Boost over Spawn Larvae every time. Why wouldn't you save energy for a research speed boost when you KNOW it's a one-time thing worth saving energy for?

This is like if you gave the Ghost an ability that cost 75 Energy and gives it a permanent +2 damage upgrade. Every new ghost you make will have this ability. This isn't a choice-driven mechanic. It's 75 energy that you could be using for any other ability, but you're only going to need to use it ONCE to get the permanent effect, why would you not?

Besides, Queens are not limited in Energy. You can make multiple queens, meaning you can benefit from Spawn Larvae on the side. The only case you have an energy limit is if you only had 1 queen, and research speed is not important to you (ie, you're not rushing).

[ArcherofAiur]

The idea is to balance it so the player has choice in which strategy to take (more larva vs faster research). This is the same idea behind balancing MULEs and Scanner Sweep.

Your multiple queens arguement assumes that the player's production of queens can keep up with larva, research, healing and creep demands.

[Triceron]

It's not a fair choice-driven mechanic. It's a binary choice of either using it, or not using it. There is no middle ground.

You have an ability that affects a permanent upgrade. Not using this ability is like telling a worker to stop mining. If the player decides to use this ability, they could wait on Spawn Larvae after the research finishes. For this player, there is no compelling reason not to research first since you only need to do it once. If you really need more energy, make more queens.

If the player values Spawn Larvae over research as a decision, then it proves the mechanic does not work - because it's valuing a situational production boost over a PERMANENT upgrade. To this player, research speed would be a waste of energy. This is akin to the PC vs Energy/Shield Battery mechanic that just didn't work. Shield Battery was considered a waste of PC energy.