Mothership Update

[Lupino]

A Marine that does 500 damage is a much more permanent, powerful solution to one that does 6 damage. That doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Don't be daft, we're talking about the difference between a spruced-up Stasis Field and something that's actually new, not simply increasing base damage to silly levels.

The crucial difference is that it denies terrain. This is new and interesting. Stasis doesn't prevent units from moving through an area.

And? Black Hole also denied terrain.

Please. All it did was kill stuff. It was an inescapable Psi Storm that killed only flying units. That doesn't have much potential.

Except it still acts as an area-denial spell, one that is much more powerful and requires a lot more careful thought in placement than Stasis Field 2.0, and it could be altered to affect ground units like Vortex does.

[Aldrius]

Don't be daft, we're talking about the difference between a spruced-up Stasis Field and something that's actually new, not simply increasing base damage to silly levels.

How is Black Hole new...? I mean, it kills stuff. Instead of trapping it... that's... not new. Loads of spells kill stuff.

Except it still acts as an area-denial spell, one that is much more powerful and requires a lot more careful thought in placement than Stasis Field 2.0, and it could be altered to affect ground units like Vortex does.

Then it'd be REALLY overpowered, instead of... somewhat overpowered.

And what on earth is wrong with Stasis Field? Vortex is superior in every conceivable way.

[Nicol Bolas]

Black Hole also denied terrain.

To flying units. There's no such thing as terrain to fliers.

Except it still acts as an area-denial spell

Again, to flying units.. That can just go around it.

Vortex is superior in every conceivable way.

... Superior is a strong word. It is a very different spell. The fact that it denies territory is vital, as your units are just as affected as theirs.

You can Stasis an army and walk around them, even in relatively closed terrain (depending on whether their Stasis'd blocks clogged the terrain up or not). You can't do that with Vortex. Sometimes this is an improvement, and sometimes it limits when you want to use the ability.

[ArcherofAiur]

Mothership 2.0
Cloaking
Wormhole Transit
Vortex
Tranquility (Ultimate) - Causes a rain of healing energy to pour down in a large area around it, healing friendly allied units for 20 hit points per second.


Im only half kidding.

[Lupino]

How is Black Hole new...? I mean, it kills stuff. Instead of trapping it... that's... not new. Loads of spells kill stuff.

It's new because the Protoss never had a flying unit that could cast damaging area of effect spells, and the mechanics behind it were something the Protoss had never had before.

Then it'd be REALLY overpowered, instead of... somewhat overpowered

Not if you place appropriate limits.

To flying units. There's no such thing as terrain to fliers.

Again, to flying units.. That can just go around it.

Again, a mechanic that can easily be changed to suck up both. And if you force the enemy to go around it to avoid Black Hole then you just...you know...denied the area to them. Mission Accomplished!

[Shadow Archon]

Black Hole is probably going to be in the campaign.

[Nicol Bolas]

Again, a mechanic that can easily be changed to suck up both. And if you force the enemy to go around it to avoid Black Hole then you just...you know...denied the area to them. Mission Accomplished!

So let me get this straight. I've built an army. A ground army. And a single unit that can teleport and ignore terrain can show up and kill all of it. Unlike High Templar, this unit has a combined total of 800 Hp, so killing it before it can fire its big gun is not an option. Basically, you're saying that I have to split my ground army up in order to deal with it. Which makes my ground army prey to yours, since you can concentrate your forces while mine must remain scattered lest they become fodder for Black Hole.

And this unit only costs 400/400. And can teleport. And is equal tech with units like Carriers and upgraded Void Rays.

That 50 damage Marine is starting to look positively balanced by comparison...

Black Hole is probably going to be in the campaign.

Not if they've got lore talking about Vortex not killing things.

[Shadow Archon]

Not if they've got lore talking about Vortex not killing things.

Well, this is just speculation, but I'm assuming that you can upgrade a Protoss Mothership with all of its upgrades that its had throughout development for the third campaign. Vortex and Black Hole are not the same ability. They look similar, but that is about it. Of course I have no proof since this is speculation only.

[Lupino]

That 50 damage Marine is starting to look positively balanced by comparison...

Only by completely ignoring my argument. As I said, you can easily apply limitations so that Black Hole isn't overpowering; for example, return the Mothership to its unique status, increase the unit's cost, give Black Hole drawbacks (ex: long "casting" time, indiscriminate damage, drains energy/shields a la Mind Control), etc.

[Nicol Bolas]

return the Mothership to its unique status

It already is unique.

increase the unit's cost

400/400 isn't exactly peanuts. It's already the single most expensive unit in the game.

The problem with all of this is that you're damaging the other possibilities of the unit. All just so you can make what is essentially a very powerful, longer-lasting Psi Storm. It's simply not interesting enough gameplay to warrant paying 600+gas for a unit.

Vortex is powerful and drives up the cost of the Mothership non-trivially. But it's not so powerful that it makes the Mothership into a choice that you can't afford to make.