StarCraft 2 Balance Team is...

[imdrunkontea]

a critical mass of bcs actually does very well vs scourge. just sayin'.

course you need such a large amount (12+) that you'd probably never see it in a legitimate game.

[MattII]

Thors are going to even the field for Terran, 10*4 damage, and Corruptors have no armour.

[Norfindel]

Corruptors are defenseless against ground anyways, unless they kill each other to convert themselves intto "turrets"

[Kimera757]

Nothing inherently bad that toss has to counter with ground, but does it seem fair that zerg corruptors get to dominate air like that? What does terran do if vikings are as ineffective as the phoenix were?

Why does one race get super duper air superiority while the other two dont? Its not even like the phoenix or viking can win through clever micro or exploiting an ability or something...

I'm on record as saying I don't like AtA-only units. As you're pointing out here, they seem too specialized. Maybe this is why they're undergoing a design change.

[KneeofJustice]

Yeah, I know. It's almost like the Zerg as a race have some vested interest in air power. Something irreplaceable in the air. Something flying that absolutely must be defended or else they lose. I wonder what that could be...

Simply put, air is more important for the Zerg.

Sure. But they shouldnt be able to just dominate air like that. Maybe they need to spend more time and energy defending their airspace but they shouldnt get inherently better air. And if the problem is that their anti air is somehow restricting them, thats a separate problem that needs to be addressed.

Being able to out-produce your enemy is big in SC. A muta harass wouldnt be nearly as dangerous if you had to make a separate building first and then had to pump them one by one from that building as you do wraiths and scouts, but more importantly to our discussion phoenix and vikings (although i think vikings can be made two at a time thanks to the reactor).

Beyond that, the corruptor is very very powerful. When critical mass is achieved (whatever it is) the corruptors get stronger while their opponents get weaker thanks to the turrets. I dont see how you can get air dominance over an opponent that can both out-produce you and out-power you. The only solution is to stay on the ground, and that is very limiting.

@norfindel: they can morph into broodlords in a pinch (also when they morph, they come out with full health: not bad eh?)

@Kimera757:

I have a theory: let me explain it and you guys can pick it apart:

Starcraft is inherently a ground-based game: this is evidenced by the ground-based buildings/base (except for terran sometimes), ground-based resources, and most of the initial units are ground units.

Air power is therefore especially important in its relationship with ground. For example: say each race had only one air unit: a pure AtA unit. These pure AtA units would be near useless in your average game right? Their sole purpose would be to fight amongst each other, but this battle would be worthless because when won, they still wouldnt have any effect on the rest of the battle (going on on the ground).

The only way to add relevance to these units is to:

1) give them an anti-ground attack
2) give them an ability or spell that makes them somehow useful outside their AtA role
3) give them an AtG unit to counter so they have a real role: hunting down the AtG fighters, not just themselves.
4) (Can you think of any others?)

So throwing aside racial flavor and diversity and whatnot (just for the moment: it can be added back in later), wouldnt the logical place to start with be an AtG fighter?

What if each fleet got, instead of an AtA unit as its initial unit (muta(or corruptor)/phoenix/viking), an AtG unit?

That keeps the airforce relevant by providing each race with an obvious choice: a unit that can attack ground from the air, avoiding terrain and enemy armies with its speed and maneuverability. Careful balancing is needed so these wouldnt be OP. Think each race with a banshee as their first unit from starport/stargate/spire.

Then, to balance this even further, the next set of units is to counter the first: standard AtA fighers. They are made useful through the fact that AtG fighters are actually effective (unlike BW). Then you could give them each an ability (AG or corruption or whatever) to keep them even more relevant.

Then the next level up is AtG (siege) think carrier or BC or swarm guardian, which arent as mobile or as good against lots of lighter units, but can pack a punch from the air.

Where they take it from there is honestly not my concern. But it makes sense right? The airforce is critical and useful because of how it interacts with the ground. Whether certain air units get countered by ground units is part of balance and flavor (ex: thors raping mutalisk flocks, or corruptors or phoenix or whatever).

But if you start with what is critical and interesting (AtG) and proceed from there, you can actually make fleets something to really work towards.

Now for more exciting racial dynamics. For example, the first zerg flyer (muta) could be AtG and AtA but not especially good at either: its speed and versatility would make it a raiding threat. The first terran flyer (banshee) would be small, fast and have a cloaking device, to encourage stealthy plays. The protoss first flyer (whatever, at this point), could be like the voidray, or it could be something like an AtG splash machine (think colossus without legs) but slow and expensive (more like swarm guardian, but splash).

Those are just examples.

The next tier up might be something like phoenix (AG), devourer (with some ability) and viking (transform to ground for added versatility)

And last tier: BC (3 separate abilities), carrier (siegerange, slow but powerful), swarm guardian (slow, siege range, makes small units)

The big difference in my system is that the cheap, first tier fighters are good against GROUND instead of good against AIR. This means that players will have a lot of incentive to include them in their army, and since they are cheap and effective (hopefully) will be able to use them throughout the game. The next tier up (AtA) would be made useful by hunting down these units and keeping your base safe. They would be more expensive and slow to make, but would do their job well: against both light and heavy air (perhaps).

Ground units would be used to protect your AtG units from the AtA units. That keeps ground units relevant. And then the big daddies are used to break down bases and stiff defenses.


The current system has everything i want, but in a different order: the void ray, for example, is a sexy harass unit. Imagine if it were cheaper and more massable, but had no AtA attack? The phoenix then would be more expensive and harder to mass but would be excellent against voidray units.

So dont get too caught up in specifics: think about my main thesis: that AtG (attack or ability) should be the focus of the airforce, with everything else falling into place around it.

[Jabber Wookie]

The big difference in my system is that the cheap, first tier fighters are good against GROUND instead of good against AIR. This means that players will have a lot of incentive to include them in their army, and since they are cheap and effective (hopefully) will be able to use them throughout the game. The next tier up (AtA) would be made useful by hunting down these units and keeping your base safe. They would be more expensive and slow to make, but would do their job well: against both light and heavy air (perhaps).

I think this is a pretty good idea, because, while overlord hunting with corsairs was fun in BW, the purpose of the game should be more so driven towards two armies attacking as opposed to supply harrass. This would cause the initial air units to play more of an "on the battlefield" role as opposed to exploited mineral/supply/macro harrassments, such as anti graving a Queen in order to slow down enemy economy. I'm sure some people enjoy the versatility these different styles of winning bring to the game, but I wouldn't mind seeing more armies killing armies games.

[don]

I'm on record as saying I don't like AtA-only units. As you're pointing out here, they seem too specialized. Maybe this is why they're undergoing a design change.

Unless they make air buildings also like what they tried to do with the starport.. I always liked that idea, I wonder why they took it out.

[Triceron]

Yeah, I loved the idea of the Starbase. It felt very Terran and very unique to them, having a building turn into a mobile fortress.

I guess it kinda made the Mothership feel less unique though.

[Norfindel]

They can morph into broodlords in a pinch (also when they morph, they come out with full health: not bad eh?)

That takes time and resources, and the unit has no defense while it's morphing, and after that, they have no defense against air.
They are at full health after morphing? That should be modified. Why would an almost-dead unit be renewed when morphed?

But i aggree in that no unit should be the answer to everything that fly.

I have a theory: let me explain it and you guys can pick it apart:

[...]

So dont get too caught up in specifics: think about my main thesis: that AtG (attack or ability) should be the focus of the airforce, with everything else falling into place around it.

Your idea is interesting, but i think that the current model allows to build any of the air units (except the big ones) nearly at the same time, anyways. So, there isn't actually a 1st and 2nd air unit, they both can be produced at the same time: Phoenix and Void Ray require Stargate, the Banshee only requires a Tech Lab on the Starport, and the Corruptor requires just the Spire. Maybe that's deliberately put that way, to see what happends during beta.

[ArcherofAiur]

Ah, I love the smell of Theorycrafting in the morning.

They are at full health after morphing? That should be modified. Why would an almost-dead unit be renewed when morphed?

Thats how its always been no? If you need a lore explaination the reconstruction of the body includes regeneration of organ and tissue yada yada


On another note, Im guessing unlike zerg evolution the battlecruiser does not regain hitpoints when being refitted.