StarCraft 2 Balance Team is...

[Aldrius]

The Void Ray is also the Protoss' only really affordable ATG unit. That in itself is pretty darn useful.

[KneeofJustice]

No one is arguing that it will not be useful. 5 took down a hatch faster than a swarm of cracklings, which in itself is fucking impressive. They have solid health, are decently fast, have good range, and can still move while attacking. They do a shit-ton of damage at maximum power.

I believe that the point of this blue quote is to show us that the VR still needs work, however that may manifest itself. Maybe it isnt good enough at its current role (hard to believe) or that its TOO GOOD, maybe its too expensive to be effective, or maybe the dominance of the AtA fighters is giving it a hard time. Maybe something like the Thor actually counters it effectively even though the thor isnt supposed to counter the VR while the VR is supposed to counter the thor...

There are any number of possibilities.

I (IMO) suspect that they are trying to make the VR more effective in its base form so it can take on smaller units better for its cost, while trying to maintain its power against larger units. It might be toss's only (edit: affordable) AtG unit, but it will be rare if all the stalkers, phoenix hydras, mutas, corruptors, marines and vikings out there are making them too risky to be built properly.

Im really hoping they reveal this mystery change soon...

[DemolitionSquid]

I (IMO) suspect that they are trying to make the VR more effective in its base form so it can take on smaller units better for its cost, while trying to maintain its power against larger units.

And this opinion is based on... what? There is NO evidence that "it needs to be better vs smaller units" is what the devs meant, and its contrary to the design of the unit: it SHOULD be weaker against smaller, mass-able units. If anything, the phrase "trying to further define its role" would indicate that's the path they're taking, not making it a more rounded unit but a more focused one.

It might be toss's only AtG unit, but it will be rare if all the stalkers, phoenix hydras, mutas, corruptors, marines and vikings out there are making them too risky to be built properly.

The Warp Ray, Carrier, and Mothership all attack AtG, and the Pheonix has Graviton beam so it kind of does too. I'm not sure if you made a typo or your information is whack.

[KneeofJustice]

And this opinion is based on... what? There is NO evidence that "it needs to be better vs smaller units" is what the devs meant, and its contrary to the design of the unit: it SHOULD be weaker against smaller, mass-able units. If anything, the phrase "trying to further define its role" would indicate that's the path they're taking, not making it a more rounded unit but a more focused one.



The Warp Ray, Carrier, and Mothership all attack AtG, and the Pheonix has Graviton beam so it kind of does too. I'm not sure if you made a typo or your information is whack.

A hunch, nothing more. Dont you think it would be quite difficult to power up a beam against a building with lots of smaller, faster, cheaper units with higher DPS (and often speed) running around chasing you?

I dont think it will ever counter smaller units, and i dont think it will really hold its own against smaller units, but i think that they can give it more of a "raiding " role if they let it harass smaller units better (using cliffs, harassing overlords, whatever). Im not too concerned if you dont agree with me, but i think that it is quite powerful at its "large-HP-killing "role as it is.

And as for saying that VRs are the only AtG, i made a typo. I was referring to the post above mine which said "affordable." Carrier and MS attacking ground.... how useful do you think they are going to be for that in your average game? I dont think it is wise to rely on them for that.

And phoenix cannot pick up massive units.

[DemolitionSquid]

A hunch, nothing more.

Please, don't post "hunches." You can post opinions, facts, ideas. But don't start making wild baseless claims lest you end up as uncredible as Archer or Blazur.

Dont you think it would be quite difficult to power up a beam against a building with lots of smaller, faster, cheaper units with higher DPS (and often speed) running around chasing you?

I'm sorry, did the Protoss suddenly decrease their army size from 15 to 1 type of unit? God forbid you need a diverse army to compete in SC2! If you're so scared of "smaller, faster, cheaper units with higher DPS (and often speed) running around chasing you" than may I suggest backing up your Void Rays with Zealots, Collossi, or Phoenix?

I dont think it will ever counter smaller units, and i dont think it will really hold its own against smaller units, but i think that they can give it more of a "raiding " role if they let it harass smaller units better (using cliffs, harassing overlords, whatever). Im not too concerned if you dont agree with me, but i think that it is quite powerful at its "large-HP-killing "role as it is.

Why do you insist the Void Ray needs to be a raider as well as a glass cannon? The Protoss can already Warp-In 6 units to anywhere on the map using a Warp Prism, and have one unit who can cross terrain tiers with a focused anti-light splash attack, almost like it was designed to harrass perfectly.

You keep trying to make the Void Ray's "large-HP-killing" role sound small and unimportant, when in fact it covers about 2/3 or more of everything you can build in the game. If you want to complain about a niched unit, try the Hellion or something.

And as for saying that VRs are the only AtG, i made a typo. I was referring to the post above mine which said "affordable." Carrier and MS attacking ground.... how useful do you think they are going to be for that in your average game? I dont think it is wise to rely on them for that.

The Mothership, probably not. But we have no idea how the Carrier will play in SC2, what Blizzard may do to see that its actually viable in standard play.

You're thinking in SC1 terms, and its clear we can't do that.

And phoenix cannot pick up massive units.

Good thing the Void Ray doesn't need it to then! The Void Ray will need accompanying Phoenix to pick up "smaller, faster, cheaper units with higher DPS (and often speed)." Is almost like the two units were designed to compliment eachother... but that's crazy right?

[Triceron]

I somewhat agree that the Void Ray's limit is the 2-second powerup aspect. It defeats hit-and-run and forces VR's to be stationary, making it very vulnerable to any sort of counter attack.

Brood Lords play a similar role, deal similar damage and have the added effect of spawning broodlings.

[KneeofJustice]

Please, don't post "hunches." You can post opinions, facts, ideas. But don't start making wild baseless claims lest you end up as uncredible as Archer or Blazur.

I posted it as an opinion back on page 7...

i wonder if the void ray will be getting a slight shift to a more balanced role instead of just anti-capitol ship (or anti-large-hitpoints, if you prefer)?

I asked what everyone thinks. You dont agree. 'Nuff said.

Why do you insist the Void Ray needs to be a raider as well as a glass cannon? The Protoss can already Warp-In 6 units to anywhere on the map using a Warp Prism, and have one unit who can cross terrain tiers with a focused anti-light splash attack, almost like it was designed to harrass perfectly.

Where do i "insist," again? Please dont mischaracterize my position. I said "can" not "must," or even "should."

i think that they can give it more of a "raiding " role if they let it harass smaller units better

If you want to have a nice, solid, reasonable discussion about the colossus, please PM me where it wont be off topic. I am happy to share my opinion with you.

You keep trying to make the Void Ray's "large-HP-killing" role sound small and unimportant, when in fact it covers about 2/3 or more of everything you can build in the game. If you want to complain about a niched unit, try the Hellion or something.

I am certainly not. Dont be absurd:

No one is arguing that it will not be useful. 5 took down a hatch faster than a swarm of cracklings, which in itself is fucking impressive. They have solid health, are decently fast, have good range, and can still move while attacking. They do a shit-ton of damage at maximum power.

I am merely suggesting the possibility that they are not seeing much use on the battlefield for some reason, or that perhaps they are too effective. Dont pretend that VRs are perfect: balancing is an ongoing process.

[DemolitionSquid]

I am merely suggesting the possibility that they are not seeing much use on the battlefield for some reason, or that perhaps they are too effective.

A suggestion/opinion again based on absolutely nothing. Before you post something, PLEASE have an argument to back it up first.

Dont pretend that VRs are perfect: balancing is an ongoing process.

In no way have I presented such an argument.

"Please don't mischaracterize my position."

[Nicol Bolas]

I somewhat agree that the Void Ray's limit is the 2-second powerup aspect. It defeats hit-and-run and forces VR's to be stationary, making it very vulnerable to any sort of counter attack.

Brood Lords play a similar role, deal similar damage and have the added effect of spawning broodlings.

The thing is, if my theory about the double-Brooodling attack is correct, the Brood Lord has the opposite effect: its first attack is stronger.

I think the issue they're trying to work out with Void Rays is the fact that they need to keep pace with their target to keep hurting it. Many of their preferred prey are fast enough to either get away or to drag the VRs into unpleasantness. And that this dragging is automatic; VRs stop shooting if you tell them to move, so they only follow the unit on a direct path.

How to solve this? Let them spin up to full power outside of battle. It should take maybe 2-4x as long as doing it while firing, and the spin-up speed upgrade at the Fleet Beacon won't affect this. But it allows their first victim to die quick and bloody.

They're still weak to mass units; killing a couple of Marines or Hydras means nothing to the group. But it makes them much more effective against units that could previously get away.

[Triceron]

That's what I meant. Brood Lords play a similar role to the Void Ray, yet are infinitely better because they have the ability to hit-and-run as well as spawn diversion units. The Void Ray's ability to attack air doesn't even compare at this point, considering it would only be an effective air counter to anything larger than itself anyways.