Are the Zerg really Evolved?

[don]

You are talking like the game is already balanced as of now. We are not suggesting this for BW, we are suggesting this for an unreleased game that is yet to go into a Beta phase.

SC2 wont be balanced at the start of beta and it wont be balanced when it comes out. If you really want to have an easy to balance game, why not have only 1 race with different models?

Its like the point in development of SC1 where they thought Zerg should have larvae instead of unit production buildings. I think the suggestion is interesting enough and applicable to the Zerg personality enough that it is worth it. They will be balancing the game for 2+ years, whether this goes in or not.

I know the suggestion conflicts with tried and true Starcraft 1 gameplay. But Starcraft 2 gameplay?

When you see counters unpredictable and strategies unrealiable I see the opposite:

Some counters will be unreliable (meaning you need to think more of how to counter) and strategies will become more unpredictable (meaning that scouting will become more important) --which raises the skill bar and I think will make competitive gaming even more intense.

You need to take a look at the end here. Imagine if this went in and in the end they get it balanced.

[Triceron]

I can imagine it. It's an unreasonable expectation for a game that's going into BETA. These kind of ideas are for early alpha, not something this late in the game. It's too late for a game-changing idea like this, you're better off looking for this in a mod or asking nicely when Blizz handles the expansion.

SC2 gameplay IS SC1 gameplay. If it weren't, Blizzard wouldn't have stuck so closely to the formula. Warcraft 3 is proof of how far they can push a game when they want to try something new. It has customization, RPG elements, neutral creeps, items and shops and more. SC2 is very close to the SC/BW game model with design and features that fit a modern RTS.

[don]

I can imagine it. It's an unreasonable expectation for a game that's going into BETA.

Yes if Beta is to be announced within 2 months.

But lets say it gets delayed 6 months more (i hope not!).. it better be because of something game changing.. Not necessarily this idea but something of the same scale.

[Triceron]

Well, I can't help if you're raising your own expectations beyond that of what Blizzard is doing.

Game development is like creating a painting. You start with a broad idea. You do all your planning on paper (Pre production). Then you start to block it out and plan the general shape (First Playable/Pre-Alpha). From there on, it's all about iterating and refining (alpha, beta), until you get a finished product. The time spent at the end is usually on polish (Post production). You don't add major scene elements once you're into the details.

Blizzard has presented Starcraft 2, and we know exactly what it looks like. It's perfectly playable and we've seen all we need to see to know how the game plays. Beta isn't the stage when you start adding huge game-changing features; it's where you fine-tune balance. Any decision to have splintering tech trees would have been factored in pre production or tested in pre-alpha. If the game does take another 6 months, then it'll take 6 months. You can't expect Blizzard to start pulling miracles out of their ass because the game is taking longer than expected. It just doesn't work like that.

[don]

Well that would bring us back to the topic title. Are the Zerg really Evolved?

Because even at this stage when we are nearing Beta, this race that is supposed to be a master of adaptation seem to be paling in comparison to Protoss and Terran.

[Triceron]

Singleplayer is where the identity of the Zerg matters most.

[KadajSouba]

Singleplayer is where the identity of the Zerg matters most.

Yeah thats true, SC2 separates from the first game, in the way that in here single players is way completely different for multiplayer. Lorewise, its single player that counts. Gameplay wise its the multiplayer. SC tried to mix the single player and the multiplayer, which limited the possibilites. Apart from a few "Heroes"(which were units with different stats) and renamed units (remember torrasque and the hunter killers), everything on single player appeared on multiplayer.

Now that Blizzard is taking this new direction, the possibilities in single player are endless. Thats why I am more excited about the single player campaign.

[tyrel68]

Well that would bring us back to the topic title. Are the Zerg really Evolved?

Because even at this stage when we are nearing Beta, this race that is supposed to be a master of adaptation seem to be paling in comparison to Protoss and Terran.

I couldnt have said it better myself.

[Santrega]

Yes, they've done it before. It was called Brood War. All it did was add a couple units to each race, add a couple upgrades and tweak some stats. It took 2+ years to balance right, and it didn't even have exclusive tech trees.

Take the Goliath for example. With just one small upgrade, it was turned from a generally unused, well-rounded unit into the defacto AA specialist. The way you play Terrans in Vanilla is almost completely different from the strategies used in Brood War, and this is due to the addition of the medic and goliath with upgrade.

Making exclusive tech paths is like trying to retrofit SC Vanilla gameplay into Brood War. It's possible to accomplish but you're essentially rebalancing an entire faction within a faction. I don't think you truly understand the scope of what you're asking. Making banelings explode OR giving them acid spore type damage is not something you can address in a patch. These type of changes are on par with adding a new race to the game. SC2 is not War3 where you can just throw around modifiers at will and things will balance out; it's a fine-tuned system with few exclusive variables.

SC1's fine balance was what made competitive gaming so intense. Watching a match between two players came down to pure skill. There were few 'random' factors in the way. Once you add exclusive tech trees with these kind of choices, you make counters unpredictable and strategies unreliable. These exclusive factors conflict with what's already accepted as Starcraft gameplay.

I just want to respond to this... The races are balanced, the units are not balanced in Broodwar. If the units were balanced, every unit would be useful in the game for different reasons, but in broodwar, 3-4 units for every race rarely come into play.

[Triceron]

Being useful doesn't equivilate being seen in play.

I'm not saying 'every unit in BW is balanced', since some units like Valks, Wraiths and Scouts end up seeing very limited use, but they are still useful for the role they play. The problem is there are alternatives (Goliaths, Dragoons, Archons) which are preferred due to cost effectiveness and easier production. It's just not affordable to mass Stargates/Starports to make air counters. Players gravitate to the most effective strategies, and it's just the nature of tech that Air units are harder to mass produce; thus harder to make counters with (other than Zerg).

The Rook is generally balanced to the other pieces in Chess, yet would see very little play if games a majority of the games are won in few moves.