Psionic Power Levels Chart

[Nissa]

Even if the Conclave were inclined to still provide support, it would only be in the department of "hopes and wishes" (I wouldn't see why they still should - insubordination is not something to be lightly disregarded as something "ok" by those who gave the initial order), not something material in terms of back-up/reinforcements given that Tassadar himself went rogue. Where would they send them to? What kind of "support" did you think I was referring to?

I'm not trying to turn this into an argument. We just don't know the context of when/how the Conclave pulled Tassadar's support. People assume that the Conclave would instantly know what Tassadar was doing and why he was doing it, but the fact of the matter is, the rank of executor (or any higher military rank) comes with a level of trust. The Conclave could have possibly assumed that Tassadar was backing off for strategic reasons, or Tassadar could have simply lied about letting humans escape. Or Tassadar could have used any manner of delaying tactics that are more or less legitimate --- "my cannons are in disrepair" or stuff like that. Perhaps Tassadar engaged in debate with his authorities for a while, and the authorities didn't stop supplying him during that period. It could be a combination of many factors, not simply the Conclave going "sucks to be you" after one single decision on Tassadar's part.

Let me put it this way. Admiral Stukov went to the psi disruptor, and Admiral DuGalle immediately assumed something bad was going on and ordered his men to murder his trusted comrade and friend. Unless the Conclave was equally as stupid, they wouldn't instantly label Tassadar a traitor.

[Gradius]

The Conclave pulled their support after Tassadar disobeyed the order to burn Tarsonis. Aldaris says so:

"The former Executor, Tassadar, was commanded to halt the Zerg progress in the Terran sector by burning the infested human worlds.

Unfortunately, he disregarded his orders and attempted to destroy the Zerg while sparing the Terrans from the flame. Clearly, Tassadar has failed us. "

[Nissa]

The Conclave pulled their support after Tassadar disobeyed the order to burn Tarsonis. Aldaris says so:

"The former Executor, Tassadar, was commanded to halt the Zerg progress in the Terran sector by burning the infested human worlds.

Unfortunately, he disregarded his orders and attempted to destroy the Zerg while sparing the Terrans from the flame. Clearly, Tassadar has failed us. "

Yeah, I was thinking of that quote. The trouble is, it's a summary of what happened, not a detailed report. Aldaris is simply putting it a few words.

Now that you mention it, actually, isn't it strange that the Executor didn't know what Tassadar did already? Maybe the Conclave tried to keep it from the public.

[Turalyon]

Let me put it this way. Admiral Stukov went to the psi disruptor, and Admiral DuGalle immediately assumed something bad was going on and ordered his men to murder his trusted comrade and friend. Unless the Conclave was equally as stupid, they wouldn't instantly label Tassadar a traitor.

By the way Aldaris asks "Where have you been?", it seems clear that Tassadar went rogue and had no further contact with the Conclave since he defied them at Tarsonis (and that Aldaris would've chased him down sooner if did know where he was and not during the actual Protoss campaign). As I said, standard military procedure for any failed op would have their commanders recall their forces and/or to demand some account for themselves and their actions. Tassadar did neither.

Yeah, I was thinking of that quote. The trouble is, it's a summary of what happened, not a detailed report. Aldaris is simply putting it a few words.

I don't know what more you could want really. If you can't even trust what he says and read between the lines, we might as well second guess everything that anyone ever said or did within Sc1. This is the same kind of defence that props the heinous Overmind retcon: "Oh, just because it didn't say the Overmind was metaphysically free in Sc1, means it's ok to reveal it as such later". Then watch those same people reel in horror and deride it as "impossible" when you tell them that one can sub "Overmind" for Raynor or any of the other Protoss characters (why not? they're aliens like the Overmind) in that statement and that it can hold just as true.

Now that you mention it, actually, isn't it strange that the Executor didn't know what Tassadar did already? Maybe the Conclave tried to keep it from the public.

It sounds like information that is strictly on a "need to know" basis if you ask me. Actual mutiny and insubordination being known amongst the lower military ranks (especially moreso if someone so highly ranked as Tassadar was) would be disastrous to morale. Also, it has the potential to incite more potential acts of disobedience in future.

[Nissa]

By the way Aldaris asks "Where have you been?", it seems clear that Tassadar went rogue and had no further contact with the Conclave since he defied them at Tarsonis (and that Aldaris would've chased him down sooner if did know where he was and not during the actual Protoss campaign). As I said, standard military procedure for any failed op would have their commanders recall their forces and/or to demand some account for themselves and their actions. Tassadar did neither.

You're making an assumption. It doesn't mean that he had no further contact since Tarsonis, it means that there was no further contact for some extended period. Given how long Tassadar might have been on Char, it's entirely probable that the point of breaking of contact could have been sooner or later than you say.

I've highlighted the words in your quote that I am disagreeing with. Its not military procedures, it's about infering specific detail from generic words.

I don't know what more you could want really. If you can't even trust what he says and read between the lines, we might as well second guess everything that anyone ever said or did within Sc1. This is the same kind of defence that props the heinous Overmind retcon: "Oh, just because it didn't say the Overmind was metaphysically free in Sc1, means it's ok to reveal it as such later". Then watch those same people reel in horror and deride it as "impossible" when you tell them that one can sub "Overmind" for Raynor or any of the other Protoss characters (why not? they're aliens like the Overmind) in that statement and that it can hold just as true.

There's a time and a place to read between the lines. Reading between the lines has the tendency to bring up personality and intuitive information, not specific place or time details. Aldaris' statement is a short summary, and you're expecting too much detail out of it. The Overmind's freedom has nothing to do with this. This freedom was obvious and extant at every single moment the Overmind was on screen, and sometimes even when he wasn't. It isn't a plot detail that hinges on one specific place or time. It's an over-arcing character trait.

The time and place of Tassadar's severance of ties with the Conclave is not a character trait, and not at all inferable from the statement you quoted. In fact, Aldaris' statement doesn't refer to any severance of contact, or whether it was initiated by Tassadar or the Conclave. All it does is briefly explain to the Executor why he has the position and Tassadar does not. It does not explain why, how, or when. You might as well tell me that I can't "read between the lines" because I don't infer that Tassadar decided to stop killing humans on Thursday, January 1st, 2500 AD, at nine in the morning.

It sounds like information that is strictly on a "need to know" basis if you ask me. Actual mutiny and insubordination being known amongst the lower military ranks (especially moreso if someone so highly ranked as Tassadar was) would be disastrous to morale. Also, it has the potential to incite more potential acts of disobedience in future.

Actually, it sounds a lot like the Conclave trying to protect its pride, lol.

But that brings me to another point: if the Conclave didn't want people finding out about Tassadar, how can they stop giving their support? The people will notice when reinforcements and supplies are no longer warped to Tassadar, particularly military personnel. They'll notice when important military positions change hands. They'll notice when news reports from the military actions no longer portray Tassadar as they once did. Thus, to keep the betrayal as secret as possible, the Conclave can't have suddenly and permanently cut off their support.

As far as Aldaris' statement goes, we can't assume it's coming from an unbiased narrator. How much of this does he want the Executor to know?

My guess is that Tassadar, not the Conclave, ultimately chose to break off contact, screw the consequences. Because the Conclave at this time probably wouldn't know much about Kerrigan, they wouldn't have enough information to order Tassadar to go to Char (presumably they didn't know about Char in the first place, as Tassadar would have been told to burn it had they known, more than likely). Aldaris' statement is primarily about disobedience to the Conclave and the consequences of that disobedience (Zerg using Tassadar's reluctance as an opportunity to escape), rather than necessarily about sparing humans. The Dae'Uhl is a logical reason why a Protoss might be reluctant to kill an "inferior" race, and is not grounds for immediate "you're a traitor, never return."

Also, Aldaris later demands that Tassadar return home to Aiur, implying Tassadar's control of his own forces, and also the more likely consequences of Tassadar's reluctance to destroy infested human worlds. That is, some form of recall and court marshal. I mean seriously, a guy is reluctant to kill, and their authority's first choice is to immediately abandon that leader and all of his forces?

What likely would have happened is that Tassadar ultimately chose to leave his position, probably on his way to Char (though that is uncertain because like I said, the time of severance of contact isn't determinable from SC1), taking with him anyone willing to follow. The Conclave remained in contact with any forces that chose not to follow Tassadar; the Conclave also more than likely sought out Tassadar to find out what happened/why Tassadar went to Char (because it's not certain what the Conclave knows at this point -- they do not learn information alongside the player), until the invasion of Aiur took priority over Tassadar.

[Turalyon]

You're making an assumption. It doesn't mean that he had no further contact since Tarsonis, it means that there was no further contact for some extended period. Given how long Tassadar might have been on Char, it's entirely probable that the point of breaking of contact could have been sooner or later than you say.

I've highlighted the words in your quote that I am disagreeing with. Its not military procedures, it's about infering specific detail from generic words.

Unfortunately, even as an assumption, Occam's Razor would still favour my assumption over yours since your position demand further assumptions and raises too many questions. If there was supoort sent and given, why does no-one make mention of it? Why don't the Zerg notice this support fleet? Why doesn't Aldaris go to Char earlier if he knows where to send support? I could go on, but why bother?

All these semantics you keep putting up are getting beside the initial point of explaining the apparent disparity of power between infested Kerrigan and Tassdar in their conflict on Char. In terms of the potential forces each were in command of, Tassadar would be the one with the disadvantage.

The time and place of Tassadar's severance of ties with the Conclave is... not at all inferable from the statement you quoted.

Yes, it does. After Tarsonis, Tassadar had been on Char all this time. If there was still contact, Aldaris would've known where he was already. If you expect that in between this short window of time, the Conclave would somehow forgive he disobeyed orders and sent him reinforcements straight-away, which Tassadar will quickly happily take, go "kthxbi" and go dark (because if Aldaris knew where he was, why ask where he was and not go get him sooner, right?). You deride my position as mere assumption and therefore not being more possible or likely when this is really the only viable alternative assumption you can come up if we are to take your position? Come on, now!

Actually, it sounds a lot like the Conclave trying to protect its pride, lol.

So we're supposed to take Aldaris' threat to the new Executor for insubordination (that it was an unforgivable act that required immediate punishment) as something newly instituted because they let Tassadar have a free pass the first time and not just general rule of thumb that is instituted in all forms of military organisations? Wow, the Conclave really are inept.

But that brings me to another point: if the Conclave didn't want people finding out about Tassadar, how can they stop giving their support? The people will notice when reinforcements and supplies are no longer warped to Tassadar, particularly military personnel. They'll notice when important military positions change hands. They'll notice when news reports from the military actions no longer portray Tassadar as they once did. Thus, to keep the betrayal as secret as possible, the Conclave can't have suddenly and permanently cut off their support.

They just toe the party-line and give out the usual propaganda about still supporting Tassadar, only the higher-ups know the specific details for sure. Sure, it's cynical, but do you really think that any governing institution isn't above doing something like this? We are talking about the Conclave who demonise the Dark Templar unfairly, afterall. They can just as easily say Tassadar was sent to go dark on a secret mission (to explain his abandonment of Tarsonis) and can't openly give him support. To explain his sustained disappearance, they can easily concoct a story to say he must have died (it's not as if Tassdar is still in contact and can defend himself) and must appoint a new Executor. When he does conveniently comeback again, the Conclave were lucky to pin his consorting with the Dark Templar as being the primary reason he was gone for so long to cover themselves up.

My guess is that Tassadar, not the Conclave, ultimately chose to break off contact, screw the consequences. Because the Conclave at this time probably wouldn't know much about Kerrigan, they wouldn't have enough information to order Tassadar to go to Char (presumably they didn't know about Char in the first place, as Tassadar would have been told to burn it had they known, more than likely). Aldaris' statement is primarily about disobedience to the Conclave and the consequences of that disobedience (Zerg using Tassadar's reluctance as an opportunity to escape), rather than necessarily about sparing humans. The Dae'Uhl is a logical reason why a Protoss might be reluctant to kill an "inferior" race, and is not grounds for immediate "you're a traitor, never return."

Also, Aldaris later demands that Tassadar return home to Aiur, implying Tassadar's control of his own forces, and also the more likely consequences of Tassadar's reluctance to destroy infested human worlds. That is, some form of recall and court marshal. I mean seriously, a guy is reluctant to kill, and their authority's first choice is to immediately abandon that leader and all of his forces?

Hmmm, I never said the Conclave didn't want to have anything to do with Tassadar or the one's to initiate breaking off contact with him once he disobeyed their orders regarding Tarsonis. They would always want to know more and ultimately want to punish him in some way (it's what the Conclave get their kicks out of it seems).

What likely would have happened is that Tassadar ultimately chose to leave his position, probably on his way to Char (though that is uncertain because like I said, the time of severance of contact isn't determinable from SC1), taking with him anyone willing to follow. The Conclave remained in contact with any forces that chose not to follow Tassadar; the Conclave also more than likely sought out Tassadar to find out what happened/why Tassadar went to Char (because it's not certain what the Conclave knows at this point -- they do not learn information alongside the player), until the invasion of Aiur took priority over Tassadar.

How does this theory somehow not lead to the Conclave not knowing Tassadar is going to Char? Sure, I can imagine some of his force high-tailing it home after the disastrous outcome of the Tarsonis battle before Tassdar receives the psychic call from Char but if there were some who knew where Tassadar was going after receiving that psychic call (I'm sure other Protoss within Tassadar's group would have heard it) and decided not to follow Tassadar, what's stopping them from ratting him out when they get back home? This just naturally leads to why would Aldaris ask where he's been and not just send some forces to Char or go there himself earlier?

[Nissa]

Unfortunately, even as an assumption, Occam's Razor would still favour my assumption over yours since your position demand further assumptions and raises too many questions. If there was supoort sent and given, why does no-one make mention of it? Why don't the Zerg notice this support fleet? Why doesn't Aldaris go to Char earlier if he knows where to send support? I could go on, but why bother?

Wow. Not only are you infering too much from the game, you're infering too much from me. I'm not saying at all that Aldaris knew about Char. Now that you mention it, though, that's a good point. That has nothing to do with my original point. We still don't know when the severance happened or who initiated it.

All these semantics you keep putting up are getting beside the initial point of explaining the apparent disparity of power between infested Kerrigan and Tassdar in their conflict on Char. In terms of the potential forces each were in command of, Tassadar would be the one with the disadvantage.

True, but I'm having fun talking about semantics. Semantics are basically all we have, given that there are so many plot-gaps in SC/BW.

My original point was that we can't assume that deception was Tassadar's only option. In fact, the purpose of Tassadar's attack on Kerri was to distract her from being able to stop Zeratul from killing Zasz. Deception -- which was only a part of and not the essence of the confrontation -- was merely the first step. Assuming Kerrigan hadn't caught the Dark Templar in the next mission and things could go on, deception would no longer be as reasonable an option, given that Kerri would be aware of Tassadar's ability to deceive. Thus, for any plan of Tassadar's to work, deception is just one tool of many.

Yes, it does. After Tarsonis, Tassadar had been on Char all this time. If there was still contact, Aldaris would've known where he was already. If you expect that in between this short window of time, the Conclave would somehow forgive he disobeyed orders and sent him reinforcements straight-away, which Tassadar will quickly happily take, go "kthxbi" and go dark (because if Aldaris knew where he was, why ask where he was and not go get him sooner, right?). You deride my position as mere assumption and therefore not being more possible or likely when this is really the only viable alternative assumption you can come up if we are to take your position? Come on, now!

*sigh* Come on, man. All I'm saying is you can't infer the specific point of the Conclave's disappointment from a couple of generic sentences.

Tassadar's crimes (or "crimes") are many, but they didn't all happen at once.

1. Refusal to kill the humans.

This is the first sign of Tassadar's independence. However, we don't know how strongly Tassadar rebelled. There's no reason to assume he was all like "I'm not killing humans ever, I'm going to pal around with the Dark Templar, up yours Conclave." It may have been as subtle as possible, with Tassadar using delaying tactics, which would allow humans to flee without saying it directly. If you'd read history books, you'd know that people of high authority have many such misdirective tactics when trying to get what they want.

When it became known what Tassadar was doing, Tassadar would have the chance to cite the Dae'Uhl as a protest to the Conclave. Keep in mind Tassadar's background as favored son; his opinion isn't going to be immediately ignored, no matter how much the Conclave protests. At this point, the more reasoned reaction by an authority would be to leave Tassadar's forces where they are, recall Tassadar, and either send in a new executor or allow someone already there to take the job. The Conclave, unless they were stupid, would not stop sending reinforcements at this point because the Zerg and humans are still threats.

This is where Tass' second crime comes in.

2. Abandonment of other objectives for Char. (?)

I put a question mark next to this because we don't know when the Conclave learned of Char, or how they specifically reacted to Tassadar's refusal to kill the humans, or how much Tassadar provoked the Conclave at this point. The statement you quoted does have some relevance, but because it is both a short statement and spoken by a biased individual, cannot be taken as a concrete statement of everything that happened. However, it's safe to assume that if Tassadar hadn't been recalled at this point, he would still be under orders to destroy infested worlds -- unless the Conclave at this point knew how much Char was an issue and decided to send their forces there.

Sheesh, this is why you can't assume too much about anything that happened in the game. There's too many dang variables.

In any case, Kerrigan got into the chrysalis and started sending out psi signals. At this point, it seems likely that Tassadar would have sent a message to the Conclave about this phenomenon, whether under orders or not. Given how Tassadar attempted to communicate with Aldaris later on about how to destroy the cerebrates, he probably would tell Aldaris about Char no matter how strained things were. In any case, this is the most likely situation of how the Conclave discovered Char, as who else would tell them? Though it's possible they found out when they traced the attacking Zerg (if they can do that) or the Executor traced Tassadar to Char when he looked for the guy during the Protoss missions.

My theory is that the attack on Char was entirely Tassadar's idea, and he did it regardless of how the Conclave felt on the matter, because he felt he must. If this was an act of rebellion, it goes on Tass' list of crimes, if for no other reason than it means he leaves some human worlds infested.

Note that this is the most likely point when the ties between the Conclave and Tassadar would have been severed, unless some subordinate could have convinced the Conclave of Char's importance. Which, admittedly, is probably not likely.

3. Friendship with the Dark Templar.
4. Friendship with humans. (might not technically be a crime)

All of these things happened after Tassadar's trip to Char, and the Conclave would not have been able to discover them immediately. We can agree that these aren't relevant to the point, given that there's no evidence that the Conclave found out about either of these before the Protoss missions started.

So we're supposed to take Aldaris' threat to the new Executor for insubordination (that it was an unforgivable act that required immediate punishment) as something newly instituted because they let Tassadar have a free pass the first time and not just general rule of thumb that is instituted in all forms of military organisations? Wow, the Conclave really are inept.

Actually, they really would be inept if it were "unforgivable" and required "immediate punishment." My earlier points covered that well enough. Really, think about DuGalle's idiocy. DuGalle and Stukov had a relationship built on trust, and DuGalle threw that away the first moment Stukov did something slightly suspicious. The Conclave and Tassadar also had a relationship of trust, and so not following through with the Conclave's orders immediately could, to the rational person, have meaning other than a direct rebellion of Tassadar. Thus, the Conclave WOULD be stupid if they treated it immediately as an unforgivable act.

You made a couple more assumptions. Granted, Aldaris' words could be taken as a threat, but they could also convey annoyance, disappointment, personal grudge, or any number of things. Semantics, yes, but the assumption is there.

Also, not burning the humans right away isn't an unforgivable thing that needed immediate punishment. Aldaris never said anything of the kind. He merely said which of Tassadar's actions lost him the Conclave's trust. There's no evidence that Tassadar wouldn't have been forgiven if he'd just given up after a while and followed through with the Conclave's orders, or that, had he still refused, the Conclave wouldn't have found some other use for him elsewhere that didn't entail him being Executor. Maybe a temporary demotion would have solved the problem, in the Conclave's minds.

That's why you putting so much weight on Aldaris' words isn't a great idea. While yes, Tassadar's acts in human space did set him up as a rebel, Tassadar never truly rebelled until he went to Char, befriended the Dark Templar, and refused to return to Aiur. If Tassadar had had a different personality, he might have refused to kill humans, but still respected the Conclave's judgement in other areas, or perhaps resigned his post to keep himself from doing something cruel. Had Tassadar done either, the Conclave would not consider his actions unforgivable

So while Aldaris points out the reluctance, the real act which set Tassadar apart was not refusing to burn human worlds, but doing as he pleased rather than submit any longer to the Conclave. As much as Aldaris might justify the act of shunning Tass, the Conclave, being power-mongery, is bound to be more upset at disobedience than anything else.

They just toe the party-line and give out the usual propaganda about still supporting Tassadar, only the higher-ups know the specific details for sure. Sure, it's cynical, but do you really think that any governing institution isn't above doing something like this? We are talking about the Conclave who demonise the Dark Templar unfairly, afterall. They can just as easily say Tassadar was sent to go dark on a secret mission (to explain his abandonment of Tarsonis) and can't openly give him support. To explain his sustained disappearance, they can easily concoct a story to say he must have died (it's not as if Tassdar is still in contact and can defend himself) and must appoint a new Executor. When he does conveniently comeback again, the Conclave were lucky to pin his consorting with the Dark Templar as being the primary reason he was gone for so long to cover themselves up.

Oh, I certainly believe the Conclave was hiding the truth. They just wouldn't be entirely successful at it if one day X number of Templar that were meant to deploy were suddenly kept home or sent elsewhere. Supply lines would suddenly be cut when Tassadar rebelled, and the suppliers and logistics officers involved would definitely notice. So as much as the Conclave would try to lie, the military is bound to notice something's up.

Hmmm, I never said the Conclave didn't want to have anything to do with Tassadar or the one's to initiate breaking off contact with him once he disobeyed their orders regarding Tarsonis. They would always want to know more and ultimately want to punish him in some way (it's what the Conclave get their kicks out of it seems).

Maybe I misread you.

How does this theory somehow not lead to the Conclave not knowing Tassadar is going to Char? Sure, I can imagine some of his force high-tailing it home after the disastrous outcome of the Tarsonis battle before Tassdar receives the psychic call from Char but if there were some who knew where Tassadar was going after receiving that psychic call (I'm sure other Protoss within Tassadar's group would have heard it) and decided not to follow Tassadar, what's stopping them from ratting him out when they get back home? This just naturally leads to why would Aldaris ask where he's been and not just send some forces to Char or go there himself earlier?

I must not have explained myself well enough earlier. Sometimes I'm not clear.

Like I mention earlier in this post, I'm willing to believe Tassadar up and told the Conclave what he was going to do. It seems like him to be like "if you guys were smart, you'd listen to me", if not in so many words. But yeah, if he didn't say anything, it's safe to assume others would have.

At the same time we don't know that the Conclave didn't tell Tassadar to go to Char. Yeah, I know that's stretching things a bit far, but it's entirely possible the Conclave at one point went, "Okay, fine, don't kill the humans. Go investigate that psychic thing over there while we send out your replacement. Jerk."

Granted, I have no proof that's what the Conclave did, and you can argue against it if you like. My overall point is, we don't know enough about Tassadar's actions to say with absolute certainty what happened to him between Starcraft's opening cinematic and the beginning of the Protoss missions. While there are certain logical inferences that must be made, any theory that seems reasonable enough can fit into that time slot. It's a blank spot, ripe for the imagination. Honestly, I hope they never fill that gap, because it's much more fun to imagine what could have been.

[Turalyon]

Each post is getting longer and longer! Nooooo, I'm getting too involved!

Wow. Not only are you infering too much from the game, you're infering too much from me. I'm not saying at all that Aldaris knew about Char. Now that you mention it, though, that's a good point. That has nothing to do with my original point. We still don't know when the severance happened or who initiated it.

I'm not going that overboard, I'm just making logical conclusions/thinking it through based on the premise you set up for me. You said that it's possible that the Conclave could still support Tassadar in that short-time in some substantial manner (we clarified that the support was in reinforcements not just kind words, right?) and I just said that for the Conclave to do that, they would need to know where Tassadar is to send that support. Even if the reinforcements did meet Tassadar at some destination between his travels from Tarsonis to Char, why would those reinforcements suddenly agree to go rogue with him and not report back? It just piles on more and more questions. In this hypothetical situation you've set-up, there's much less reason why Aldaris shouldn't know where Tassdar is than compared to if Tassadar just went completely dark the instant he failed at Tarsonis.

My original point was that we can't assume that deception was Tassadar's only option. In fact, the purpose of Tassadar's attack on Kerri was to distract her from being able to stop Zeratul from killing Zasz. Deception -- which was only a part of and not the essence of the confrontation -- was merely the first step. Assuming Kerrigan hadn't caught the Dark Templar in the next mission and things could go on, deception would no longer be as reasonable an option, given that Kerri would be aware of Tassadar's ability to deceive. Thus, for any plan of Tassadar's to work, deception is just one tool of many.

That was only part of it. You also intimated that we couldn't estimate Tassadar's position (in terms of the power he could wield at the time) because it is only assumed he had finite/limited resources at the time compared to Kerrigan. That is what I disagreed with.

Tassadar's crimes (or "crimes") are many, but they didn't all happen at once.

1. Refusal to kill the humans.

The crime is actually the refusal of obeying direct orders, orders that he fulfilled at least thrice before-hand, mind you. If there was any reservations, should've he have done something earlier (like, I don't know, after the very first planet he burned?) or before his sudden decision to just pull away from Tarsonis. There was nothing stopping Tassadar from still burning Tarsonis after his failed ground assault - I'm sure his ships were still intact since he did get away afterall. Besides, insubordination is a major crime in military organisations - it's not something commanding officers will let go off lightly let alone excuse it on the off-chance they may continue with further insubordination if they do ("fool me once...", you know how it goes).

When it became known what Tassadar was doing, Tassadar would have the chance to cite the Dae'Uhl as a protest to the Conclave. Keep in mind Tassadar's background as favored son; his opinion isn't going to be immediately ignored, no matter how much the Conclave protests. At this point, the more reasoned reaction by an authority would be to leave Tassadar's forces where they are, recall Tassadar, and either send in a new executor or allow someone already there to take the job. The Conclave, unless they were stupid, would not stop sending reinforcements at this point because the Zerg and humans are still threats.

Don't you think the Conclave would've reasoned this out with Tassadar before he went to glass three worlds? Wouldn't Tassadar's citing of the Dae'Uhl be the very first thing he would offered when given these orders initially? Given the sudden and unexpected unreliability and poor tactical judgement shown (not only did he disobey orders, he lost resources in an unnecessary engagement), would you want to risk giving that person more resources without reservation or assurance they'd be used appropriately? I'd want to recall his ass right this instant to get a full account of himself! In either case, anything the Conclave would've demanded fell on deaf ears since Tassadar just decided to go AWOL given that Aldaris seemingly has no idea whatsoever why Tassadar decided to do what he did (Aldaris only ever reprimands Tassadar on his actual actions, not on any defence/excuses that Tassadar may have offered for his actions had their been communication between the two sometime after Tarsonis and the start of Protoss campaign)

As to the "favoured son" part, well, given that it's well known that there has been historic tension between the Judicator and Templar castes, I would expect "favour" granted by the Judicator's (the Conclave/ruling body) to be conditional on the Templar continuing to do what they are told to do.

I put a question mark next to this because we don't know when the Conclave learned of Char, or how they specifically reacted to Tassadar's refusal to kill the humans, or how much Tassadar provoked the Conclave at this point.

You can no longer afford to be so naive. The Conclave don't need to know about Char. All that's relevant is that Tassadar disobeyed a direct order (you really must stop devaluing this as being no big deal to the Conclave) and went AWOL without telling them what he was doing (we know this because Aldaris wouldn't have been so angry and reacted the way he does in the Protoss campaign and that had he known Tassadar's whereabouts any earlier, he would've done something way before the stuff that does actually happen in the Protoss campaign).

In any case, Kerrigan got into the chrysalis and started sending out psi signals. At this point, it seems likely that Tassadar would have sent a message to the Conclave about this phenomenon, whether under orders or not. Given how Tassadar attempted to communicate with Aldaris later on about how to destroy the cerebrates, he probably would tell Aldaris about Char no matter how strained things were.

Huh? What? I'm definitely misunderstanding you here because if I'm not the following questions are going to be hard to answer:

If Aldaris knows Tassadar's location is on Char and the sitrep - how can he then claim later that Tassadar's desertion had shaken his faith? Because, Tassadar suddenly just stopped sending signals after telling him about the psi signals? Why bother asking where he's been? And why does Tassadar have to say that he's on Char (and describe it) if Aldaris already knew that? Wouldn't he say something to the effect of: "I'm still on Char, as I had mentioned previously"? All the information that Tassadar brings in Into the Flames seems like it's "first-hand" to Aldaris. If Aldaris knew where Tassadar is, why didn't he just go get him earlier to formally strip him of his rank before assigning it to someone else? That would've prevented confusion amongst the ranks and save having to make up stories.

Actually, they really would be inept if it were "unforgivable" and required "immediate punishment."

We are talking about the Conclave here. They are the epitome of "unforgiveness" (yep, making up words now) and the meting out of immediate punishment.

Also, not burning the humans right away isn't an unforgivable thing that needed immediate punishment.

This sets up a precedent that insubordination is ok if it's your first and only time (and perhaps any other later time, too, while you're at it). I don't think any military organisations will ever consider this acceptable.

There's no evidence that Tassadar wouldn't have been forgiven if he'd just given up after a while and followed through with the Conclave's orders, or that, had he still refused, the Conclave wouldn't have found some other use for him elsewhere that didn't entail him being Executor. Maybe a temporary demotion would have solved the problem, in the Conclave's minds.

Then why didn't he just give himself up earlier if thing's weren't going to be "that bad"? Why go rogue at all? He obviously distrusts them and knows that they will punish him if he did give himself up, that's why! And why would he think that? Oh, I don't know, maybe the Conclave has done similar things in the past that have made Tassadar justifiably form that opinion about them...

So while Aldaris points out the reluctance, the real act which set Tassadar apart was not refusing to burn human worlds, but doing as he pleased rather than submit any longer to the Conclave.

The refusing to obey orders is actually part of Tassadar "doing as he pleased rather than submit any longer to the Conclave". The Conclave wouldn't have got to the notable position it once held if they just let wrong things happen for a bit before they take action.

Supply lines would suddenly be cut when Tassadar rebelled, and the suppliers and logistics officers involved would definitely notice. So as much as the Conclave would try to lie, the military is bound to notice something's up.

It's an easy cover-up. As I said, the reason why we're not sending supplies is because it's an ultra secret mission that will be compromised if we lend any obvious support. After a period of time when that story can't hold up, they can say Tassadar may have died because he didn't contact them at the time they agreed upon previously. It's not as if Tassadar is in a position to refute any of this afterall given that he's rogue.

At the same time we don't know that the Conclave didn't tell Tassadar to go to Char. Yeah, I know that's stretching things a bit far, but it's entirely possible the Conclave at one point went, "Okay, fine, don't kill the humans. Go investigate that psychic thing over there while we send out your replacement. Jerk."

Granted, I have no proof that's what the Conclave did, and you can argue against it if you like. My overall point is, we don't know enough about Tassadar's actions to say with absolute certainty what happened to him between Starcraft's opening cinematic and the beginning of the Protoss missions. While there are certain logical inferences that must be made, any theory that seems reasonable enough can fit into that time slot. It's a blank spot, ripe for the imagination. Honestly, I hope they never fill that gap, because it's much more fun to imagine what could have been.

I agree that's it much more fun to explore the what-ifs but if one had to make a best guess, you can't beat Occam's razor. The less questions a theory brings up the better. That way, people have less chance of throwing accusations of "that's ridiculous" or "you're just making things up to piss me off" at you.

[Nissa]

Dude, occam's razor doesn't always apply, especially in writing. It's like Spock said, sometimes you don't have the truth, all you have is a story "that happens to fit the facts." My point is, there are a lot of potential stories that happen to fit the facts of this situation, and indeed so many that occam's razor might as well go shave legs. Fiction is a world of endless potential, not a world bound to absolute logic.

The crime is actually the refusal of obeying direct orders, orders that he fulfilled at least thrice before-hand, mind you

Did you read my post? This is exactly what I said. Seriously. It's up there, just further down in the post.

When I was making the post you quoted, I was listing the things that Tassadar did wrong in the eyes of the Conclave. If you notice, it's labelled 1, as in first of a series. In fact, when I mentioned this, I was saying it because I was trying to establish that refusal to kill the humans, while a problem for him politically, was neither the only nor primary factor in Tassadar's condemnation.

If Aldaris knows Tassadar's location is on Char and the sitrep - how can he then claim later that Tassadar's desertion had shaken his faith? Because, Tassadar suddenly just stopped sending signals after telling him about the psi signals? Why bother asking where he's been? And why does Tassadar have to say that he's on Char (and describe it) if Aldaris already knew that? Wouldn't he say something to the effect of: "I'm still on Char, as I had mentioned previously"? All the information that Tassadar brings in Into the Flames seems like it's "first-hand" to Aldaris. If Aldaris knew where Tassadar is, why didn't he just go get him earlier to formally strip him of his rank before assigning it to someone else? That would've prevented confusion amongst the ranks and save having to make up stories.

....Tassadar need not have kept the Conclave updated, as he was rebelling and doing what he wanted, but I can't imagine someone of his rank would be so irresponsible to not mention that the Zerg appear to have a capital world. I imagine it that Tassadar told the Conclave the trouble existed, and that if they had any sense, they'd support him in destroying Char. Then he'd go off and do as he pleased. Much like how Tassadar acted when he told Aldaris of how they should destroy cerebrates.

Of course, given Tassadar's reaction to the Executor when they met on Char would be to expect rescue, then Tassadar's act of going to Char could have been one of desperation or perceived need rather than outright rebellion, now that I think about it. Actually, that sounds much more reasonable. He was so passionate about doing what he perceived as right that he disregarded the Conclave, yet at the same time didn't think it through enough to understand the consequences.

Anyway, that's all just speculation. See how many variables there are? Since we don't know Tassadar's emotional state during his disobedience, we can't predict his actions with much certainty.

Then why didn't he just give himself up earlier if thing's weren't going to be "that bad"? Why go rogue at all? He obviously distrusts them and knows that they will punish him if he did give himself up, that's why! And why would he think that? Oh, I don't know, maybe the Conclave has done similar things in the past that have made Tassadar justifiably form that opinion about them...

Wow. Woooow. So many assumptions.

Y'know why Tassadar didn't give himself up? Because that's not his nature. He's far too passionate and proud to beg for forgiveness.

Not only that, but killing the humans was a violation of the Dae'Uhl, an important moral principle to the Protoss. Thus, obedience to the Conclave is in direct contrast to Tassadar's moral principles as a proper son of Aiur. When confronted first-hand with such a massacre, Tassadar couldn't possibly go through with it, and his obvious delaying tactics of letting humans escape before burning worlds shows that his actions weren't immediately intended as a rebellion. His line to the Executor about "hope of rescue" when on Char proves that despite Tassadar's actions, in his heart he hadn't intended to burn his bridges with the Conclave at that point.


Well, hey, thanks for the thought-fodder. It's interesting to see what might have been with Tassadar.

[Turalyon]

Dude, occam's razor doesn't always apply, especially in writing. It's like Spock said, sometimes you don't have the truth, all you have is a story "that happens to fit the facts." My point is, there are a lot of potential stories that happen to fit the facts of this situation, and indeed so many that occam's razor might as well go shave legs. Fiction is a world of endless potential, not a world bound to absolute logic.

When it comes to points of contention about certain things in a story, there are some things that "happen to fit the facts" better. Occam's razor can help sort out such contention by keeping as much verisimilitude as that particular fiction allows and to keep ridiculous assertions from finding there way in.

When I was making the post you quoted, I was listing the things that Tassadar did wrong in the eyes of the Conclave. If you notice, it's labelled 1, as in first of a series. In fact, when I mentioned this, I was saying it because I was trying to establish that refusal to kill the humans, while a problem for him politically, was neither the only nor primary factor in Tassadar's condemnation.

The reason why I clarified it to "disobeying direct orders" was to illustrate is that you don't need a list of crimes when numero uno is already a big one. I probably should have clarified it more by adding - "from a higher authority".

....Tassadar need not have kept the Conclave updated, as he was rebelling and doing what he wanted, but I can't imagine someone of his rank would be so irresponsible to not mention that the Zerg appear to have a capital world. I imagine it that Tassadar told the Conclave the trouble existed, and that if they had any sense, they'd support him in destroying Char. Then he'd go off and do as he pleased. Much like how Tassadar acted when he told Aldaris of how they should destroy cerebrates.

And you accuse me of making unfounded assumptions. Char is a remote, barren world (Tassdar's own words). There is nothing there for you to assume Tassadar that knows that this is the Zerg's capital/base of operations let alone the part about still being in contact with Aldaris/the Conclave. If Tassadar suspected the world to be full of Zerg, he would have no compunction but to burn it from orbit since it's an unoccupied world and won't twinge his conscience. This then raises the question of why Tassadar didn't try burning the world after he knew the Zerg were on it? If he had contact and reinforcements - he would have capability to do so. And yet he doesn't. I wonder why?

This still doesn't explain why Aldaris doesn't come/take action to fetch Tassadar from Char earlier though or explain his displeasure at Tassadar's "desertion" or explain re-appointing another Executor when in this scenario, the Conclave are fully appraised of what is happening with Tassadar's movements and whereabouts.

Anyway, that's all just speculation. See how many variables there are? Since we don't know Tassadar's emotional state during his disobedience, we can't predict his actions with much certainty.

That's the problem - there's too many variables. Your headcanon requires too many leaps of logic, fanciful assumptions and the warping of the meaning of existing dialogue than even my own assumption. I think I'd rather stick to the law's of conservation of detail and occam's razor to do the work for me.

Wow. Woooow. So many assumptions.

Y'know why Tassadar didn't give himself up? Because that's not his nature. He's far too passionate and proud to beg for forgiveness.

Although the questions were legitimate, I was "taking the piss" with the answering of my own questions in that quote you responded to. The answers weren't meant to be taken too seriously. It's hard to get that across when just typing. Sorry.

Not only that, but killing the humans was a violation of the Dae'Uhl, an important moral principle to the Protoss. Thus, obedience to the Conclave is in direct contrast to Tassadar's moral principles as a proper son of Aiur. When confronted first-hand with such a massacre, Tassadar couldn't possibly go through with it, and his obvious delaying tactics of letting humans escape before burning worlds shows that his actions weren't immediately intended as a rebellion. His line to the Executor about "hope of rescue" when on Char proves that despite Tassadar's actions, in his heart he hadn't intended to burn his bridges with the Conclave at that point.

Nice to know that his pangs of conscience didn't stop him from wiping out three planets beforehand. The Conclave would be thinking if one could stomach one massacre, let alone 3, what the hell is one more?