Is it wrong to want an simple game ?

[FrozenArbiter]

To be honest, I agree, even though I fully intend to play SC2 about as seriously as you can play it.

I'm not at all sure I like the macro mechanics, despite having argued for them a lot initially. I'm still in favour of things like warp-in or drop pods tho, just not sure I want to go back to base to cast an AoE spell on my workers once every 30 seconds, seems kinda pointless

[Santrega]

I didnt think I'd have time for this today, but I found myself with nothing to do at the moment. I'll break this up so that I can better respond.

We are constantly presented with new sugestions or features that people would like to ad to the game. And some people are constantly saying that the game neds to be more chalenging and harder, nothing has ever enough micro or macro.

So i'm just wondering, what is wrong with wanting an simple good designed game with a good flow. There will not be only pros playing this game, there will also be casuals. I'm one of those casuals, so i'm wondering why do you want to ruin the game for us casuals?

Perfecttear, It is a matter of preference. All of us want something different out of the game. Some of us want the challenge of mastering it... Some of us want to totally destroy our friends in it... Some of us want to play it occasionally and just enjoy themselves on it... Some honestly just want to see the blizzard art and starcraft story...

I think you are looking at this wrong. New suggestions don't mean that the game will be inherently harder because of them, but they could be depending on the suggestion. Simple could be looked at as bad because most players are going to fall under the competitive casual category. Where they do play when they have time, but when they do play they want to win.

The players like yourself who play just for fun will have a plethora of map choices and scenarios in sc2. You'll be able to make your own maps and really simplify everything further if you like, and only play that map. The just for fun, I don't care if I win or lose crowd is not the majority, therefore if the game was made to suit them, the game wouldn't be very popular.

Some people play for fun, and not only for the competition between other players and the thriels it brings. Macro mechanics for example are not fun. They deprive me of that fun sensation of finishing something. I actualy like it very much, when i'm done with the resourcess (everything full and ruining), and can forget about them, and concentrate on other things like army. But with the macro mechanics you are never done with it, since you can never be.
I still remember the old farms in AE2( before the exp), where you had to manualy replenish them every once in a while. And lategame, you probaly had so many, that you had to replenish an farm every 15 seconds. It was one of the most nuisance things in the game, and the number one complain. And the curent macro mechanics remind me exactly of that. So i don't understand why people would like these mechanics, and for some people even those are not enough, they want even more useless features in the game.
You also need a fun game if you want a large playing auidience.

I would like to understand you, so could you explain to me why the macro mechanics are good?

RTS games are complicated. This is because it basically is an action chess game. If you decrease the difficulty of the game, the rewards for winning a game are also decreased. If you increase the difficulty of the game, the rewards for winning a game are increased. The side effect is both of these could have an impact on the enjoyment of the game. The key is to increase the difficulty while not effecting how fun the game is in a bad way.

I agree that the macro mechanics as is are not fun because you are forced to return in a specified time throughout the entire game. In comparison, the macro mechanics would be like having to build a new barracks every time you wanted to make more marines. It's not the fact that you have to do it thats the problem, its the fact you have to continuously carry out the same action that makes it less fun.

I suggested a new resource in order to carry out the macro mechanics as permanent boosts because of this. This allows you to gather the resource whenever you want, as fast or as slow as you want, while still being difficult to pull off. Once you have your macro mechanics, if you protect the buildings or units that provide them, you'll never have to cast it again, but thats the key to its difficulty. You have to protect fragile workers over a minute, and you have to protect the macro unit as well as protect any future harvesting. However, its not something you'll feel you absolutely have to do.

Ideally, the resource suggestion I made will allow you to completely avoid it all together. You can simply choose to spend time putting pressure on your opponent and never letting them get the macro mechanic themselves, which means you don't lose ground economically by not doing it.

I trust Blizzard to stick with their motto "easy to learn and hard to master".

The best thing about macro mechanics is that casual players do not have to use them. A casual player will have access to every building, unit, and upgrade in the game without the small increase in resource efficiency that comes from the macro mechanics.

Two newbies playing each other can have a great game without remembering to use the macro mechanic as often as possible.

Casual players will feel they have to do them. The mechanic is there to be used and it will give you a sizable advantage at different points in the game. If you don't do it, you'll likely lose a lot. This is where you are "forced" to use it. Anyone who wants to win, will be forced to repetitively click a spot several times throughout the game to get the same effect.

I thought this was really the only alternative, but I now believe my idea really is the best way to go about the macro mechanics, and it really doesn't force anyone to do it. You can choose sabotage over resource harvesting boost. The strategic choice is whats so valuable in the idea, as well as the future possibilities with a new LIMITED resource.

[ArcherofAiur]

I'm still in favour of things like warp-in or drop pods tho, just not sure I want to go back to base to cast an AoE spell on my workers once every 30 seconds, seems kinda pointless

They are reworking the Protoss one FA. By the way have you checked out my remote mining MULE thread?

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=107698

[Arkalis]

Santrega, you forgot to add "WARNING: Incoming Wall of Text"

But what you say is true and Perfecttear and others that think the same about macro should read your mass of words

*Still it is a valid opinion and it is good that others discuss their thoughts rather than just let flow by what others say

*EDIT: Commantary was kinda hostile

[Mothxal]

What i cannot understand is that the macro mechanics are being introduced before beta.
Maybe the gameplay doesn't really needs them.
Who knows what are the players capable of doing with the new game after some months. Maybe the gameplay would change for the good.
If you put the mechanics there, the players would use them (unless they suck too much), but maybe they would find other things to do instead of that.
I would simply have the mechanics ready to be introduced at a later stage if it seems like they're really needed. But of course, they don't want negative reactions when beta launches, and i can see people complaining about not enough to click. At least until they realize they could be doing some interesting clicking, instead of casting the same BS ability in the same area all the time like mindless robots.

~

I don't think the macro mechanics are there solely for replacing automining and mbs. I think Blizzard wanted to see if they could innovate the resource and macro system present in starcraft, as they've already done with mechanics such as reactors and warp-in. The macro-casters then represent player involvement with resourcing, partly to replace the gap am/mbs left, yes, but on the whole they're a more compelling and involved way for a player to manage his economy.

If they are badly designed (such as proton charge seems to be), beta is a good way to discover this and make neccessary adjustments. I also imagine "saving" the macro mechanics for a later state of beta for when the beta participants have decided macro is lacking is endangering the potential quality of the game. This is because the macro mechanics can hardly be tested well if they're added half-way through beta and appear only as concession to demands for more clicks - or more involved micro-play - , and the community would never accept them at such a late stage of the game's development anyway.

[Triceron]

It will be perfectly legit to play without macro mechanics. You don't _need_ macro mechanics to win any games, it's just an economy boost. However know that your opponent will most likely use it, because it's there, and it's not that hard to use.

An economic boost helps but if you're more focused on expansion or harassing, it's still just as viable to not use the macro mechanics. I mean if your game level is at a point where you're not spending resources at every second you get it, chances are you're not playing to reach the top tier ranks and are playing for fun. You don't need to wrap your head around it, I mean there's a lot of other things you can do like comp stomps or friendly matches that don't involve being the best of the best and requiring high APM.

[Perfecttear]

All i wish for Christmass is an rude autocast for the macro abilities

And i don't have anything against hard games, for example i love Earth2150 which was far more complicated and harder than starcraft or any other rts.

Thank you for your post Santrega


edit: Just wondering does anybody know exactly, how much is the difference between a player using them and a player not using them, in resource sense (10%, 30%,50%)?

[ArcherofAiur]

With all due respect to PT. One of the things I am most looking forward to is 40 mineral drones and super larva generation. Seriously thats going to be alot of fun to play with.

[SuperKiller]

K.I.S.S

[DemolitionSquid]

Fun is having twice the army as the other guy and steam rolling him. Try out macroing some time

As usual you missed the point.

Yes, fun is having twice the army as the other guy and steam rolling him. But GETTING THERE is not what makes SC fun. And the macro mechanics are part of GETTING THERE. They are FUNCTION, not fun.