What do you think about giving Protoss a Gas Mechanic?

[Gt2slurp]

that it should go for the three races to be balanced, otherwise it's unthinkable since it's impossible to think of a way to make it work.

It's possible if you don't think of it in term of pure gain, there is many way to change the relation between protoss and gas (lol) without making them harvest more in the long run. I don't have the mechanic itself (I leave that to master theorycrafter) but can you guys be more open minded and stop shouting Balance!! everywere for nothing?

[ArcherofAiur]

It in their nature. People just have this assumption that everything is already balanced and if you change something it will throw this magical equation out of order. Remember how many people complained that the zerg macro mechanic sucked because you had to pay for the workers and terran and protoss just got free minerals. Then people realized how powerful it really was.

I don't have the mechanic itself (I leave that to master theorycrafter)

The Master Theorycrafter

[MattII]

What about an upgrade (individual rather than global) that allows your Assilimilator to warp the gas packets back to the Nexus instead of having to rely on Probes to carry them back?

[KadajSouba]

Im against any mechanics that involve economics. I mean if it aint broken dont fix it. Resource gathering was flawless. Perfect. All three races got the same chance to gather resources at the same rate. But u decide how to spend them. Thats it. Dont know why they want to mess up with economic mechanics when what we want is battle mechanics. I mean really???? U want to "control" ur mineral and gas income???? Shit thats very exciting, I waited 11 years so the new game turn the most simple mechanic in Starcraft (resource gathering) into a macro nightmare.

When they said that they were working on macro mechanics for protoss I expected something cool. But if they are checking stuff like this, then my hopes are dead.

[Nicol Bolas]

This mechanic could be the same, giving some timed gas boost to help producing critical unit at critical moment.

The concern is this.

Blizzard has deliberately and purposefully (they've said this themselves) made gas more valuable in SC2. No more depletion mining, having to use 6 workers (8 for Zerg) to get the same income as in SC1, increased gas costs for particular units, etc. These are all efforts at making gas into a particularly valuable resource.

Giving the Protoss a mechanism, whatever that mechanism is, to increase their intake of gas is dubious. Let's say it gives the Protoss 10% extra gas compared to the Terrans.

Because gas is more valuable, minerals are comparitively less valuable. So the Terran mechanic must naturally be less valuable per unit mineral. Thus, to keep things in relative balance, something must change. Either Mules/etc must give disproportionately more minerals, or Protoss units that cost gas need to have their gas cost raised.

The latter poses a problem: namely, that it makes the gas mechanic worthless by comparison. Failure to properly use it puts you well behind where the Terrans are, even if they don't use Mules themselves. Because your gas-heavy units cost more than theirs, you have to do something like stay a base ahead or take other risky action in order to be effective.

The former (more minerals from Terran mechanic) poses a different problem. As valuable as gas is, Terrans don't need anything but a small amount for Marines and Hellions. Gas to buy a couple of buildings and a small number of upgrades. They could probably get that off of a single geyser. Which means that a Terran now has the resources to power lots of Barrackses with Reactors. That means lots of Marines. The Protoss's counters for mass units don't really show up until the very bottom of the tree (Colossi/HTs); they could easily get steamrolled just from gasless Terrans with proper Mule/etc use.

This kind of change is intrinsically dangerous. It can make the game go bad very easily. I simply don't think it's worth it.

And the best part about all of this is that in 3 years the racially diverse resource mechanics will be praised as one of the most incredible things about Starcraft 2. Its funny how history repeats itself.

Yeah, let's look at that history.

This history includes SC1. Where the balance between races collapsed to such a degree that 2/3rds of the Terran matches involved the same units used in the same way.

There's "imbalance" and "unbalance." When you have a live game that millions of people are playing and watching, imbalance is still unacceptable, but you can live with some unbalance. When you're designing a game, willful unbalance is not acceptable.

It's OK to let things be corrected in the metagame. But you had damn well better know first that the metagame can correct them. There's this general belief, particularly among the TL crowd, that StarCraft cannot be imbalanced, that any change will eventually be ironed out in the metagame (or with map-making), that the single optimal strategy for victory can never be achieved.

This might even be true. But it is not something that you should rely on in the game design phase. When you hit Beta, you should be thinking, "This game is perfectly balanced and there is no unbalance here." When the game ships, you should be thinking the same thing. The same thing should be thought after every patch.

It doesn't matter that you're wrong every time. What matters is that the thought process ensures that you're trying every time, rather than just saying "screw it. Let most Terran matches devolve to STs."

I mean if it aint broken dont fix it.

Yeah. Siege Tanks aren't broke, so let's leave them exactly as they were in SC1. And Marines. Those were perfect, so let's never change them at all.

All three races got the same chance to gather resources at the same rate.

Except for the Zerg, who's Drones actually mine slower than the others. And because they can't constantly pump Drones due to centralized production.

[AegisKHAOS]

Im against any mechanics that involve economics. I mean if it aint broken dont fix it. Resource gathering was flawless. Perfect. All three races got the same chance to gather resources at the same rate. But u decide how to spend them. Thats it. Dont know why they want to mess up with economic mechanics when what we want is battle mechanics. I mean really???? U want to "control" ur mineral and gas income???? Shit thats very exciting, I waited 11 years so the new game turn the most simple mechanic in Starcraft (resource gathering) into a macro nightmare.

Precisely my thought, especially true since the amount of gas you gather is significantly less compared to minerals. I wouldn't mind so much an upgrade to the resource gathering, so long as it's the same for all three races, but making a unique mechanic especially for one that is gas, and all for the sake of timed clicking, doesn't sit well at all. If people are so concerned with skill levels and APMs and the like, put it somewhere else, leave the resources alone.

When they said that they were working on macro mechanics for protoss I expected something cool. But if they are checking stuff like this, then my hopes are dead.

Given that they're working on an alternative to the obelisk, unless they intend to ditch the current macro mechanics altogether, expect this to be an alternative to PC.

[Perfecttear]

I don't like it, since blizzard obviously intended only one race to have a gas macro mechanic and more gas, and that is the Zerg, with their spawn larva.
Balance wise i don't think it would be agood idea for the protoss to have more gas than the zerg.

[Gifted]

Nicol has restated a lot of the vital points on why the gas mechanics will contribute more difficulty to the game than benefits. Ultimately, it's not a notion of "This will make the races unbalanced" so much as "gas is one of the common denominators that measures balance".

When you look at the scope of gameplay, shifting one of the core balancing factors will show more of it's flaws to overcome if you look at the scope in the late/end game than in the early game. The explanation I've attempted to write the last 5 minutes would involve a wall of text, one which would probably spur more debate than actual examination. The ultimate point is that it's my opinion (supported general gameplay design theory) that the gain is less than the problems created by this specific suggestion. It would show more so in the long term.

Also second question, if (when) I am right again and Blizzard does give Protoss a gas mechanic, what reward do I get?

Im hoping for the title Master Theorycrafter, or maybe for everyone to just be more open minded from then on...

No one on Blizzard's staff gets any glory or respect if an idea makes it through. It's a team effort on their behalf and for the record, I already know that they've attempted gas mechanics a long time ago. It would be rather disrespectful to "claim the idea as your own" only because you get some sort of blue response saying "we're interested in this discussion". It's also a bit disrespectful to anyone else who discussed points on the subject as it implies that your discussion is more important than those who discussed it with you. You might want to take a step back and consider things like this, it could be perceived as inconsiderate. >.< (Remember.. just because you STARTED the discussion regarding the idea doesn't mean that your idea specifically could be the one examined.. every person in that discussion could bring forward a point that Blizzard values..)

I think maybe you should worry a bit more about your contributions to the mechanic idea and a bit less about how others perceive you.

I don't like it, since blizzard obviously intended only one race to have a gas macro mechanic and more gas, and that is the Zerg, with their spawn larva.
Balance wise i don't think it would be agood idea for the protoss to have more gas than the zerg.

Something to consider is that there is currently a limiting factor that balances the income of gas on every race. That's the total amount of gas income per second. This is a static value that directly corelates to the amount of gas geysers each race controls with assumption that the minimum travel distance is achieved. The only thing that Zerg are more potent about is being able to obtain drones faster and therefore reach the maximum gas per second ratio faster.

[KadajSouba]

Yeah. Siege Tanks aren't broke, so let's leave them exactly as they were in SC1. And Marines. Those were perfect, so let's never change them at all.

Errrr the general idea was that they are trying to complicate the most simple MECHANIC of the entire game. Please care to read and have a better comprenhension of what people writes, before trying to be sarcastic.

[Gt2slurp]

Errrr the general idea was that they are trying to complicate the most simple MECHANIC of the entire game.

We could have said that for the zerg unit production. Selecting a building and press a key to make an unit is pretty simple, why adding fuc*** larva to complicate this!? The whole larva thing is balanced, zerg can save up larva for precise timing (3 hatch muta) without having more larva in the long run.

What if the «gas mechanic» work like that, you engage the «gas proton charge» lets say the «neutron charge» (lame physicist joke), and then you harvest more gas for a certain time but you cant have it right now, only at the end of the «charge». You can use this gas boost (+250 is a good number) to make archon timing push or anything that cost a lot of gas. And then you probe carry 1 or 2 less gas per trip until you have refunded, you can reuse the «neutron charge» only when refund is completed.

Is that acceptable? I dont see the way it can be unballance. The collecting rate is the same if we considere a complete cycle. It's just about timing well your gas push. And if this cause a nightmare to you, just dont use it, you dont suffer any gas loss for not using the mechanic.