Mutalisks legacy

[Draco]

Zerg units do have active abilities. It's called Burrow, and it's present in 80% of the ground units. This is the reason why you don't see two active abilities on units. Just because we haven't seen it before does not mean it can't work for the game, SC2 has proved this over and over again by breaking its own rules with new design elements. One example is movement while burrowed.

I don't think the Muta is the right unit to have an ability though, since it is still very much a generalist unit with great potential. Yes, it's a weak unit to enemy attacks, but that's because it's such a great harasser when used correctly. It has splash, it moves quickly, and they can stack relatively close. I don't think this unit should specifically counter anything, or have any gimmicks to make it more offense, defensive or support than it already is. The muta is supposed to be a massable all-purpose air unit.

The active ability is actually in sync with the whole generalist idea. It'd increase the number of situations you can now use a Mutalisk for. It would also make them better at base raiding. Every aspect of the Muta is affected positively.

[DemolitionSquid]

Muta micro is the one thing from Starcraft 1 that should absolutely hands down, 100% work EXACTLY the same. Down to the split second.

Why? Because you think an unintentional glitch is perfect? By exactly the same, do you want the Muta control group to need a Larva for stacking to work?

Choose your next words carefully, Leonidas.

[RamiZ]

That's totally untrue. Mutalisks were actually used in the days before Muta micro was invented. Muta/ling, with a team of Zerglings with air support, was a very common strategy. And yes, Mutas were used as harassment too.

^This! I remember Yellow vs Boxer game where he used only Mutas, and he didn't know to stack them, but still destroyed Boxer.

Choose your next words carefully, Leonidas.

[ArcherofAiur]

Why? Because you think an unintentional glitch is perfect? By exactly the same, do you want the Muta control group to need a Larva for stacking to work?

Because I dont let the fact that something was originally a glitch blind me from seeing the value in it. I think some people get hung up on "it wasnt intentional therefore its a bad thing". Muta micro was not by any stretch of the imagination a bad thing. Its one of the best (and funnest) things about Starcraft. Now you can take away the larva control group. But to the idea of changing for the sake of changing something thats already perfect I say...

That is blasphemy. That is madness.

[Perfecttear]

Basically Mutalisks are the only harassers Zerg has, so I don't think they will be bad at all!

Well there is your problem, afcourse it will be good if it is the only thing you got, or ever tried. As i posted in the original post, imagine if the zerg would get a new bether more exciting harasser. How can you say something is the best, if you never actualy tried anything else
There is no such thing as an perfect unit, as matter of fact naming anything perfect is a paradox. Anything can always be improved !
Exspecialy the mutalisk, who is far from perfection

[Nicol Bolas]

This is the reason why you don't see two active abilities on units.

Reapers. Stim & mines.

Just because we haven't seen it before does not mean it can't work for the game, SC2 has proved this over and over again by breaking its own rules with new design elements. One example is movement while burrowed.

See this post.

Because I dont let the fact that something was originally a glitch blind me from seeing the value in it.

This is irrelevant. You want to keep Mutalisk micro "click-for-click" the same. That is the problem.

There is a difference between seeing the value in something and idolizing it to the point where it must be replicated exactly. This is the same kind of idolatry that leads to you believing that SC2 macro must work exactly like SC1 macro or it's not good macro.

I think some people get hung up on "it wasnt intentional therefore its a bad thing". Muta micro was not by any stretch of the imagination a bad thing. Its one of the best (and funnest) things about Starcraft.

Allow me to illustrate the error of your post with an analogy.

Team Fortress Classic vs. TF2. There are two exploits in TFC that fundamentally changed the nature of the game: rocket jumping and bunny hopping. One of these was good, so Valve brought it over essentially unchanged to TF2. One of these was bad, so Valve naturally shoved it into the trash heap.

Rocket jumping is a natural outgrowth of understanding that explosions move people around. It was inevitable the minute the developers coded that fact into the game. And here's the most important thing: you could figure it out for yourself without even playing the game. If you sat down and explained the basic physics of the game to someone who had never played it, and that person was clever, he could reply with, "What would happen if you jumped and fired a rocket at the ground under you?" A lightbulb goes off in your brain, and lo, rocket jumping is born.

Bunny hoping isn't like that at all. Bunny hoping is not an inevitable outgrowth of basic physics. It is an outgrowth of the particular implementation of physics in Quake that came wholesale into Half-Life. It was not an interaction of high-level design, like "explosions push people;" it came instead from a glitch in the implementation of physics. You cannot discover bunny hoping by explaining the basic physics of the game to someone; you would have to go into incredible detail in the numerical integration system in order for them to be able to think it up.

For those who don't know, bunny hoping is a way of gaining far greater speed than normal by repeatedly hoping in a certain way. Running velocity is capped, but air velocity isn't.

Bunny hoping doesn't exist in TF2. It was explicitly removed from the game. Now, why did they do this?

Bunny hoping in TFC became a necessary skill for players of any real ability. But it also fundamentally changed the dynamic of the game. In conjunction with conc jumping, Medics became the most powerful running classes in the game. Rather than, you know, Medics. Teamwork, particularly for groups of players that aren't much of a team, was not rewarded. Indeed, it was not uncommon for a skilled Medic to solo go into a defended base, take out a Sentry Gun or two, get the flag, get out of the base and cap it. All without any direct assistance.

The hardcore TFC players loved it, of course. So what did Valve do?

In TF2, they recreated some of the effects of bunny hoping. With teleporters, you recreate some of the speed, in the sense that slower classes can get to the front line faster. However by doing it this way, they reward team play. Heavy's don't build teleporters; Engineers do. And since the game is called "Team Fortress," not "Medic Runs In And Caps By himself Fortress," this helps promote the overriding theme of the game.

The hardcore TFC players hated this. They made their own game called Fortress Forever (TFC in the Source engine). It's basically dead because only the hardcore minority play it.

Now, let's analogize this to SC2 Mutalisks. Let's assume for sake of argument that Mutalisk micro does not exist in any real way. And let's further assume that this makes Mutalisks alone useless for raiding.

How useless for raiding would these Mutalisks be if an Overseer came over and dropped some acid spores before the raid began? Well that changes the whole dynamic of Mutalisk combat, doesn't it? Tight clusters of Muta is exactly what you don't want when acid spores have been dropped over the mineral line, as even the 3rd bounce will be doing substantial damage to units. You want to spread that damage around.

This achieves the same effect, but it promotes multi-unit play. It's no longer just about what you can do with your Mutalisks; it's about what you can do with your Mutalisks and Overseer.

It's not just about intensional or non-intensional. If the effects are good, or partially good, you can rebuild those effects with new mechanics that can also do other good things.

That is blasphemy. That is madness.

Are you both playing the same part in the movie?

[Josue]

Zerg units do have active abilities. It's called Burrow, and it's present in 80% of the ground units. This is the reason why you don't see two active abilities on units. Just because we haven't seen it before does not mean it can't work for the game, SC2 has proved this over and over again by breaking its own rules with new design elements. One example is movement while burrowed.

I don't think the Muta is the right unit to have an ability though, since it is still very much a generalist unit with great potential. Yes, it's a weak unit to enemy attacks, but that's because it's such a great harasser when used correctly. It has splash, it moves quickly, and they can stack relatively close. I don't think this unit should specifically counter anything, or have any gimmicks to make it more offense, defensive or support than it already is. The muta is supposed to be a massable all-purpose air unit.

now I think that phrase I underlined is thinking out of the box!
We don't know currently what new mechanics Blizzard is trying out every week (I heard they are constantly changing things between builds) even if it's just about how responsive and fast mutalisks are now, their attack speed, damage, hp and things like that.
I guess they're not sleeping on their laurels and trying to find a way to keep mutalisks looking classic but being able to be good at their job and worth their price. Remember that we're theory crafting without having even tried the unit and know how it feels to have a good amount of them crush the protoss or terran armies! I guess that once you start playing with it you'll feel it as if it were new and better (still looking classic though, like an old dog with new tricks!), I don't think they will keep it exactly as it was in SC1 since it would be too weak with the new SC2 mechanics such as blink, shielded marines and the new damage type system. I guess they could add an ability if tweaking all the other stuff ended up not working, or maybe not! But only God knows what they'll do!

[Triceron]

I was referring about Zerg units not having 2 active abilities. But if you can see it fit to use the Reaper as your example, then why cite that Zerg units can not have any active ability other than burrow when there exists a unit with two active abilities? No where in Blizzard's great design philosophy does it say two abilities is mutually exclusive to Terrans and Protoss.

[Nicol Bolas]

But if you can see it fit to use the Reaper as your example, then why cite that Zerg units can not have any active ability other than burrow when there exists a unit with two active abilities?

Burrow is a collectively researched upgrade. You research it once, and every unit that could burrow can.

The reason that Zerg units don't have any other activated abilities is not that having 2 active abilities on a unit overloads it. It is because Zerg units don't have active abilities other than Burrow. And burrow is more of a global Zerg mechanic than a traditional active ability.

There have been 7 different kinds of air units that the Zerg have had between SC1 and SC2. Plus the SC1 Ultralisk that couldn't burrow.

When the time came for Brood War, Blizzard could have improved the Ultralisk by giving it an active ability. But they chose to give it armor and speed research instead. When the time came from BW, Blizzard could have chosen to create a ground unit with an active ability. Instead, they created the Lurker, a unit that uses burrow as an active ability. Burrow for Lurkers is like Siege Mode for Tanks, except that it is part of a global Zerg mechanic* rather than a separately researched local one. Similarly, Devourers have a passive ability rather than active.

When the time came for SC2, did the Guardian-upgrade Brood Lords get an active ability? Did the Devourer-upgrade Corruptors get an active ability? Nope: passive abilities for both. The only returning SC2 unit that got an active ability was the Ultralisk, and all that did was plug the hole in the global "burrow" mechanic by allowing them to do so.

Why would they make all of these choices against non-burrow active abilities if it weren't a racial trait of the Zerg? Coincidence?

*If you want to get technical, the Lurker's burrow is not the same ability as the global Zerg burrow. It doesn't get researched, and it makes a differently shaped hole in the ground. This is done because Lurkers would be useless without burrow, and it would make Lurker research effectively cost more (bundling it with burrow). Siege Tanks still can shoot things without Siege Mode.

[Draco]

See this post.

Well, here's my criteria for enforcing a rule. There must be self-evident merit behind the rule, and the rule is being followed. You claim that racial identity is at stake if Zerg get another active ability, yet Burrow, Queens, Infestors, Overseers, and morphing don't count as active abilities? I don't see any intuitive violation of anything if Mutalisk micro play had a new micro mechanic. Mutalisks were already very unique for the kind of gameplay they brought to Starcraft, so I find it difficult to assume that all the rules of other units also apply to them.