Mutalisks legacy

[RamiZ]

I'm starting to get the impression that what you're arguing against is going from 10-3-1 bounce to 10-3-1-1 bounce damage. That's not what's being proposed. What's being proposed is going to 10-7-3-1.

Yeah I got that feeling too.

[Triceron]

Zerglings attack is not effective T3 without the attack speed upgrade, so it's false.

Would you ever use lings without the attack speed in T3?

[Nicol Bolas]

Zerglings attack is not effective T3 without the attack speed upgrade, so it's false.

This is both a dubious claim and one that has been made against Mutalisks, which you dismiss out of hand despite evidence from actual players.

Would you ever use lings without the attack speed in T3?

More than I'd use Mutalisks at Tier 3. Zerglings still, particularly with some attack upgrades, have a pretty strong damage output. Better than Hydralisks against many kinds of units.

[Triceron]

This is both a dubious claim and one that has been made against Mutalisks, which you dismiss out of hand despite evidence from actual players.

Enlighten me what claim and in what context it is in. Mind you, I am not refuting that Mutalisks do not need some kind of boost, my point remains that it does not need it in the form of bounce +1 (and yes, I am using the 10-7-3-1 model).

[Nicol Bolas]

Mind you, I am not refuting that Mutalisks do not need some kind of boost, my point remains that it does not need it in the form of bounce +1 (and yes, I am using the 10-7-3-1 model).

Well, a Mutalisk boost could be anything, so technically any particular suggestion is not strictly necessary. The problem I have is that your arguments against the added bounce don't make sense.

Your most effective gameplay argument was that Tier 3 upgrades should expand the utility of the unit into new roles, and that this particular upgrade didn't do so. This was refuted in two ways: first by showing the Zergling which got a Tier 3 upgrade that didn't expand it into new roles. Second, by showing how this would expand the capabilities of a Mutalisk, allowing its splash damage to be more effective and reliable.

[LegacyofTerra]

I agree that the Muta seems kind of off. It isn't like it's that necessary for Zerg to have an air generalist anyway, they have zerglings and hydralisks, which should be more than sufficient to eliminate Marines and air units without the mutas. The mutalisk was used in SC 1 because there was a short time period where it was effective due to being hard to hit and that it had splash damage to take out the tier 1 units that couldn't fight back yet. Once Weapons +1 and Range hit, mutas got raped. Nothing you can do with them from that point on, except with the plague vs. Science vessel combo. It was extremely time consuming to micro mutas, and usually you fell behind unless they were used to their full potential.
Those days should be over and the mutalisk scrapped. It's not like zerg doesn't get a huge boost with unlimited selection already Actually, maybe that should be scrapped as well. Or maybe selecting more units should be researched? The great pathfinding which helps surrounding should really help Zerg anyway. And from MBS they get to use additional control groups for their army.

[GnaReffotsirk]

A zerg light air unit that is specialized in harassment would be much appreciated. Stacking and muta micro works for a zerg to prolong their life, and focus fire. This maximizes the unit. But it's only good for a time, as we all know.

It can also be used as a fast response air unit for quick defense or disrupt an opponent's expansion. It forces opponents to defend those areas, as Mutas can whoop in and out. The opponent can be pressured to build defensive structures just to protect their mineral lines, or keep them occupied just because there is the possibility that mutas can appear 30 seconds from point to point.

This is the added value for zerg players who use mutas. They can supplement a frontal assault with a quick run to the rear and break for a few seconds divide an opponent's army, etc.

Its speed, maneuverability, works for certain tactical advantages.

So, having the mutalisk retain these in Sc2 would be great.

I would suggest the mutalisk have another ability, which would then allow the player to morph 4 to 12 mutalisks into one unit that turns it into this raider. The lower its HP gets, the smaller the damage output. It will have slow HP regeneration rate, but the player can refill the HP and so restore the unit's damage output back to a full 12 unit morph by adding the appropriate amount of mutalisks required to do so. That is IF proper stacking is impossible to do.

[flabortast]

Maybe they should reduce the Vespene cost to 75?

[LegacyofTerra]

Zerg are so mobile that they can harass with absolutely anything and achieve the same effect as mutas. The fact that you can nydus into enemy bases at any time alone should be sufficient for enemies to build defenses. If they don't, you can just as well exploit that fact. No need for Mutas here. In fact, you'll probably do it cheaper that way. Your units get in and out just as fast, just as easy, as a demonstration during G-star clearly showed, without teching to costly units that become useless at one point of the game, unless the unit is altered significantly. The damage boost suggested previously would make it a different unit, a unit the zerg don't really need. In fact, the colossal damage output of those hyper-mutas would probably decimate workers way too quickly to be balanced. It also conflicts with the lurkers role, rendering the lurkers even less used than they have been now (as far as I've read, at least, meta-game will probably change).

Why would the zerg need fast response air units? If the zerg never stop macroing, they should have plenty of units they can constantly ferry to key points on the map and back, with the little twist that this mobility can be easily countered by just destroying the building. If the enemy drops on a cliff, just overlord-ferry. It also requires teching and has counters that any race will definitely use anyway (M&M, later vikings, and stalkers/phoenixes). So why bother? Zerg are a surrounding race and have already units that can take key units out (like the glorious infestor). Mutalisks add only what the zerg already have in a way that will be outmatched fairly quickly. It would also prevent ZvZ from becoming Mutalisk vs. Mutalisk battles.
Scrap the mutalisk, the Zerg don't need it.

[ArcherofAiur]

Kinda wish the mutalisk would mutate. Maybe with the corruptors new abilities theyll move the Broodlord back to Muta.