Mutalisks legacy

[Triceron]

I want _NO_ upgrade for the Muta. You should be able to look at this and say exactly what you said for the Archon. It _ALREADY_ has splash, it should be happy it has that and it should be balanced so that it is an asset to its effectiveness, not a feature that requires more upgrading.

Baneling and Hydra speed upgrades are purely a matter of gating. Marines start with no stim, Zealots no charge, Stalkers no blink. Banelings need speed when those upgrades are researched, they need the speed to catch up. This is a part of the design.

There is nothing gating the Mutalisk that is saying 'you need more splash to be more effective'. This is not a part of its Tier 3 design. If this unit is lacking in T3 balance, then adjust its stat scale to make it more effective. If it needs 4 bounces, then give it 4 bounces from the start (with lower base/bounce damage). Don't dance around adding upgrades where they aren't needed.

Effectively people are saying 'Muta gets countered too easily T3, it needs an upgrade' and ignoring the fact that the upgrade does nothing to change that fact. If it's too easily countered, then it needs stat adjustments or find its niche (ie as harassers, flankers). Giving extra splash is a bandaid for a problem that doesn't exist. No one is saying Mutas aren't hitting enough units.

[RamiZ]

Archons aren't free.

They aren't? Don't know how, but 2 HTs make one Archon, with no additional resources. And those HTs cost resources, but you used them up to the full potential, and then when they are out of energy, and can't be used anymore in anyway, you make Archon with them, so yeah, Archons are free. The only Archons that aren't free are those that you make just for countering some kind of strategy, so you are making HTs just to make Archons out of them, and not cause of Storm or w/e.

There is nothing gating the Mutalisk that is saying 'you need more splash to be more effective'. This is not a part of its Tier 3 design. If this unit is lacking in T3 balance, then adjust its stat scale to make it more effective. If it needs 4 bounces, then give it 4 bounces from the start (with lower base/bounce damage). Don't dance around adding upgrades where they aren't needed.

I would just like to see Mutas in tier 3, when Marines got Stim + HP Upgrade, and Stalkers Blink. I would like to see how would Mutalisks fight with those units. Even if they are generalist, they are completely useless in Tier 3. And When I say completely I mean COMPLETELY! Thors, Vikings, BCs, HTs, Archons, Phoenixes are all units that counter Mutas perfectly well. I don't see how Muta can fight them at all, and all those units that Muta could fight in Tier 2 are now upgraded with something and Mutas can't fight them...

[Nicol Bolas]

T3 type upgrades are meant to open up late game viability. Mutas have no problem in the end tier that needs to be justified with an upg.

Except that they do. In SC1, people do not use them late game very often, and when they are, it is in a limited role. This is a fact.

Unless you can explain how the game has changed such that Mutalisks will have greater Tier 3 utility, there is no reason to expect them to be more useful in Tier 3 in SC2 than they are in SC1.

Archons and Banelings don't have upgrades

Banelings have a speed upgrade. And Archons are at one of the bottoms of the Protoss tech tree.

By no means would they be too powerful with 4 bounces in T2, and by no means does making them have 4 bounces in T3 change their use. Would you ever say "I'm not going to use Mutas in tier 3 because they have only 3 bounces"?

No. You would say what people playing SC1 say now, "Mutalisks have limited utility in tier 3." You don't have to propose a solution to ask the question.

Also, I have outlined exactly how giving them 50% more damage would change the units against which they are useful. I explained very clearly that, by disproportionately doing more damage to other units than the one they're attacking, that they gain utility against groups of units.

In effect, because the muta already has splash, it is similar to a damage upgrade.

"similar to" does not mean "equivalent to." Things can be similar in some ways and have important differences in others.

Ultimately, why do Mutas need more splash damage to stay competitive in Tier 3?

Because in Tier 3, there are a lot more units around period. In Tier 3, you're starting to hit the unit cap. This is the Tier where AoE starts really being important. It's why Ultralisks gained linear AoE, and why Lurkers work at this Tier. Hitting multiple units matters in Tier 3 more than it matters in any other Tier.

An upgrade that makes all of your already-produced Mutalisks suddenly 50% better is not a minor thing. It would also make focus-firing and stacking less useful, if not actively detrimental to quickly taking out groups of low Hp units.

And it's not necessarily that Mutalisks need more AoE; it's that they need something at Tier 3 and AoE is conveniently available. AtG is taken by Brood Lords. And AtA was taken a Tier ago with Corruptors. Flying AoE is a niche that nobody else has, and the Mutalisks already have splash. Just give them some more of it, and let them go.

They aren't? Don't know how, but 2 HTs make one Archon, with no additional resources.

I would consider the HTs to be a resource in this transaction. You are destroying two powerful spellcasters for, effectively, an AoE melee unit. You are losing potential Psi Storms in the future.

If this unit is lacking in T3 balance, then adjust its stat scale to make it more effective.

Again, why are you not using the same argument against the Crack upgrade for Zerglings? It is exactly the same thing: make the unit better so that it can be more useful late-game.

[DemolitionSquid]

They aren't? Don't know how, but 2 HTs make one Archon, with no additional resources. And those HTs cost resources, but you used them up to the full potential, and then when they are out of energy, and can't be used anymore in anyway, you make Archon with them, so yeah, Archons are free. The only Archons that aren't free are those that you make just for countering some kind of strategy, so you are making HTs just to make Archons out of them, and not cause of Storm or w/e.

1. The initial cost of the Templars should always be taken into account.

2. Building an Archon means you no longer have Templar. There's a direct power cost involved in what you can do with the unit.

2. (Build) time = money.

[RamiZ]

I would consider the HTs to be a resource in this transaction. You are destroying two powerful spellcasters for, effectively, an AoE melee unit. You are losing potential Psi Storms in the future.

Point is that you are not Transforming them just to be Archons, but in the middle of the fight where they can't be of any help anymore.

[Draco]

Mutalisks could use an upgrade to bring things up to Tier 3 viability, but damage spread to help against Marines isn't the answer. I still think the Muta barrel roll solves the problem more directly even though it isn't a passive ability. Active abilities tend to be more fun and engaging anyway. What would a Stalker be without his Blink?

[Triceron]

You're faced with upgraded marines, AA, Thors etc all at Tier 2 level. If Mutas can't handle these off the bat, then what reason is there for them to deal with these in T3? If they were meant to be able to stand toe to toe with these, then they should have the stats to do it. They are still as vulnerable to what they attack if you give them more damage.

More splash damage helps mutas kill, but it's still faster and most effective to focus fire. You say that with this splash upgrade, it'd make focus fire less meaningful - yet the truth of the matter is the muta's speed and abiilty to focus fire is its greatest asset in its survival, not standing around attacking random targets. It kills FASTEST when it FOCUS FIRES. Mutas don't have the HP to attack random targets to make use of their trickle splash damage. They will DIE to M&M faster if they attacked random targets (to maximize splash) than if they flew in and out focus firing.

If you want a 50% damage upgrade, why not simply fold this into its Air Attack upgrade? Make it scale more effectively so it's NOT garbage in T3. Let it gain +2 damage instead of +1, by the time it hits rank 3 it's dealing a lot more damage, just in time for T3.

Points of matter I agree with

- Mutas need to be effective in Tier 3
- Mutas are being countered by AA of all types, since they are weak
- Mutas could possibly outweigh their HP/armor by dealing more damage
- Mutas could possibly use 50% more damage in T3 (number varies on balance)

I pose the question. Why +1 bounce and not simply a scaling damage stat boost. It's not like Mutas don't already have splash.

[RamiZ]

More splash damage helps mutas kill, but it's still faster and most effective to focus fire. You say that with this splash upgrade, it'd make focus fire less meaningless - yet the truth of the matter is the muta's speed and abiilty to focus fire is its greatest asset in its survival, not standing around attacking random targets. It kills FASTEST when it FOCUS FIRES. Mutas don't have the HP to attack random targets to make use of their trickle splash damage. They will DIE to M&M faster if they attacked random targets (to maximize splash) than if they flew in and out focus firing.

Hm? Mutas in SC1 were picking of Marines one by one, but if you wanna really face Marines, you do it with hold position, so 12 Mutas attack 3-4 Marines at the same time, and splash there made big difference. One more bounce to their attack is even better. It makes Mutas better vs mass of those units like Marines and Stalkers. I don't fucking understand why do you think this is bad idea. I can't argue with you anymore, I give up. If you don't understand that Mutas didn't really change from SC1 in better way, with all those units that are now good against them, and they don't have upgrades at all, and without Mutas stack(not good as in SC1) they are pretty much useless. If you don't see that I can't help you...

[Triceron]

Mutas ALREADY HAVE BOUNCE. It's ALREADY effective, and if it's not effective enough then it should be fixed with balance, NOT by adding an upgrade with more bounce.

Lets do some math.

---------------------------
4 Bounce
10 - 7 - 3 - 1 = 21 damage, 4 targets.

X20 mutas.

200 - 140 - 60 - 20. 4 targets if focus fire. 3 Dead Marines, one possibly hurt.

If not Focus Fired, it takes 6 muta to gib a 55hp marine, other damage trickles. Last bounce can do 20 damage, but could be negated by armor.

Lets take another example with the similar damage.

Scaled DPS boost (~+1 per Air Attack upg)
12 - 6 - 3 = 21, 3 targets

20 mutas

240 - 120 - 60. 3 targets if focus fire. 3 Dead marines.

If not Focus Fired, it takes 5 mutas to gib a 55 HP marine, other damage trickles.
---------------------

In effect, that extra bounce does little more than a straight-up damage boost, and you're still killing marines effectively without the extra bounce. If damage is what Mutas need, then what is the problem with straight up giving it to them?

[Nicol Bolas]

You're faced with upgraded marines, AA, Thors etc all at Tier 2 level.

You won't be facing as many of them.

You say that with this splash upgrade, it'd make focus fire less meaningless - yet the truth of the matter is the muta's speed and abiilty to focus fire is its greatest asset in its survival, not standing around attacking random targets.

Only not.

Assuming equivalent upgrades (attack vs. armor), it takes 5 Mutalisks to kill a Marine with the shield upgrade. If you have 13 Mutalisks, and you tell them to fire at one Marine, you will over-kill him, wasting 70 damage. You'll still get the bounces for the overkill, but the initial attack will hurt no one.

However, if you a-move the same 13 Mutalisks, then they will not randomly attack. They will attack the nearest Marines. Assuming a standard distribution of Marines (clustered into a ball), that means that the swarm will engage between 3 and 5 Marines. Distributing damage randomly, then no Marines will die in the first shot. However, if the first bounce does 7 damage, and it too is randomly distributed, then only in the case of 5 Marines will all of them not die. And there's a good chance that between 3 and 4 of them in the 5 Marine case died. And that doesn't count the 3rd and 4th bounces.

Admittedly, this is a crude model. It doesn't take into account what happens if a bounce goes into the crowd rather than the first 3-5 Marines that were engaged. But it does show that a lot of damage is wasted if you focus fire Marines, and far less is wasted in this case. You kill more Marines in the same space of time.

Mutas don't have the HP to attack random targets to make use of their trickle splash damage.

I'm starting to get the impression that what you're arguing against is going from 10-3-1 bounce to 10-3-1-1 bounce damage. That's not what's being proposed. What's being proposed is going to 10-7-3-1.

Mutas ALREADY HAVE BOUNCE. It's ALREADY effective, and if it's not effective enough then it should be fixed with balance, NOT by adding an upgrade with bounce.

"Zerglings ALREADY CAN ATTACK. It's ALREADY effective, and if it's not effective enough then it should be fixed with balance, NOT by adding an upgrade to attack speed."

Why is that any different from what you said?