Mutalisks legacy

[Triceron]

Let me rephrase.

Giving the muta an upgrade in Tier 3 gives the misconception that the UPGRADE is needed for the muta to stay competitive. That is not the case, as the muta works just fine in Tier 3 even if it 'lacks extra bounce'. The extra bounce does not open up gameplay options any more than it currently works. It does not counter anything more effectively, it's as banal as a damage upgrade. If you're going to do this, you might as well give it 4 bounce from the start.


The word secondary implies being second, which is exactly what the splash is. Unlike Lurkers, Siege Tanks, Ultralisks and other units that have splash damage, the Muta's is a weaker version that trickles off. Yes, it has potential to kill more than one unit, but by no means are people making mass mutas because they can do a lot of splash damage. It's an upgrade that's 'nice to have', like energy upgrades on Wraiths. It doesn't open up a whole lot of gameplay choice here, you're not using the muta any more effectively or differently with this passive change.

Adding 1 to bounce does not suddenly make this secondary attack more important. If you're already using mutas to kill workers, and you're doing it successfully, that extra bounce is as important as a simple damage upgrade. You're not really using it to boost effectiveness beyond the scope of damage. Crackling and Hellion upgrades actually open up gameplay options. Lurker range opens up gameplay options. Muta bounce is as important as boosting its damage slightly.

I mean this is akin to giving Siege tanks a +2 splash range upgrade. It's highly beneficial, but it doesn't really need it to be any more effective at what it already does.

[Nicol Bolas]

Giving the muta an upgrade in Tier 3 gives the misconception that the UPGRADE is needed for the muta to stay competitive. That is not the case, as the muta works just fine in Tier 3 even if it 'lacks extra bounce'.

So exactly how are Mutalisks just as useful at Tier 3 as at Tier 2? There are more things that can kill them and kill them faster: Vikings will have their range upgrade, Phoenixes will exist in larger numbers, there will be more Thors and Marines roaming the map, etc.

In SC1, there is no question that Mutalisks have a short life utility. A big part of that was Irradiate, but even vs. Protoss, the only use Mutalisks have late-game is sniping HTs. This is hardly useful work for a supposed generalist unit.

What has changed about them that makes you think that Tier 3 Mutalisks will be any more useful in SC2 than they were in SC1?

You're not really using it to boost effectiveness beyond the scope of damage.

Damage is the only scope of effectiveness. Lurkers with 9 range can hurt more things than Lurkers at 6 range; that's why they're better. Cracklings do more damage in a given unit of time than Zerglings. Hellions do more damage to a certain type of unit. And so on.

How fast you can kill things is the only metric that matters.

Adding 1 to bounce does not suddenly make this secondary attack more important.

Sure it does. You're doing far more damage to that second and third unit than before. This means that Mutalisks are now better against groups of enemies than before. Stalkers and Marines are now comparatively less effective against them than they were without the upgrade.

[Triceron]

You answer my questions but you ultimately use nothing to back up the relevancy to Muta +1 bounce.

More things counter the muta. Vikings, Thors, etc. What does your + bounce do to change this? Very little.

At most you're slightly more effective against marines, but throwing mutas at marines isn't the ideal matchup. You're best off avoiding marines; or using micro to pick em off 1-by-1. If you're doing this, then the extra splash isn't a huge factor in the strat. Yes, it is more effective, but it's not exactly changing or adding to gameplay choices. You're using 4 bounce the same way as 3 bounce muta. You have no reason not to get the upgrade, but the upgrade offers no real competitive benefit other than being more effective against mostly low-HP units.

In effect it's not an interesting mechanic.

I'm sure if I suggested Siege Tank splash radius upgrade, Archon splash radius upgrade and baneling splash radius upgrade, it would all be beneficial as well. Reality is, we don't need these upgrades, because it changes gameplay very little for these units. If they need to be more effective at what they do, then balance should dictate this by adjusting correct splash values, not by throwing in menial upgrades that act as placebos to tier 3 matchup issues.

[RamiZ]

Giving the muta an upgrade in Tier 3 gives the misconception that the UPGRADE is needed for the muta to stay competitive. That is not the case, as the muta works just fine in Tier 3 even if it 'lacks extra bounce'. The extra bounce does not open up gameplay options any more than it currently works. It does not counter anything more effectively, it's as banal as a damage upgrade. If you're going to do this, you might as well give it 4 bounce from the start.

In WC3 Huntress got bounce attack just like Mutalisks in SC, and they have Tier 3 Upgrade that gives them one more bounce, why do you think they have that? Cause it is useless?

I'm sure if I suggested Siege Tank splash radius upgrade, Archon splash radius upgrade and baneling splash radius upgrade, it would all be beneficial as well. Reality is, we don't need these upgrades, because it changes gameplay very little for these units. If they need to be more effective at what they do, then balance should dictate this by adjusting correct splash values, not by throwing in menial upgrades that act as placebos to tier 3 matchup issues.

From your post, I can see you don't understand how splash is affecting gameplay. It does affect it a lot! Look it this way, cut the Splash from Siege Tanks, and give them back as an upgrade. Would you then upgrade splash or not? Or would it be useless?

[Triceron]

I'm not saying take out the splash and adding it back in, I'm saying increase the radius, which in effect is similar to adding an extra bounce to Mutas. So archons will splash MORE, Siege tanks splash MORE. You can see how this would be beneficial, correct? I'm saying (Hypothetically) if the Siege Tanks and Archons needed tier 3 upgrades to stay competitive, design should have prevented this by balancing them so don't need upgrades. They should be fine without upgrades, the way they are right now.

Huntress worked with bounce because it was not a generalist unit; it was a COUNTER unit. War3 had a very strict Rock-Paper-Scissors system, and Huntress with the upgrade made them worth using late game to counter masses of infantry units; which if upgraded were still competant even in tier 3 game.

Mutalisk doesn't exactly counter anything specific, and the splash is very much a residual effect of its primary damage. Tier 3 upgrades are meant to keep units of earlier tiers competitive in the late game. This is why lings get crackling upgrade. This is why Lurkers get range upgrade.

Mutas do not have any problems in Tier 3, and if it did, they aren't being solved with +bounce. It's a nice-to-have upgrade, but so is a general damage upgrade. It's not like the Muta was being countered by a few too many marines or a few too many hydras; they're being countered by Marines and Hydras period. The effect of higher splash has the same goals as damage boost, which is killl more units. It's not even an issue of killing more efficiently, or hitting targets it can't reach normally. It's hitting the same targets, but hurting one more of them; which is ultimately the same effect if it did more base damage and outright killed units with their splash.

[Nicol Bolas]

At most you're slightly more effective against marines, but throwing mutas at marines isn't the ideal matchup.

And why not? Because Marines come in bunches and Mutas don't do enough damage per shot to the entire group. An extra +7 damage bounce would change this.

You're using 4 bounce the same way as 3 bounce muta.

I wouldn't take 3-bounce Mutas against a fleet of Phoenixes, while there's a chance I might if they're doing 50% more damage per shot. The same goes for Marines, Stalkers, Hydralisks, and any other massable air attacker.

I'm sure if I suggested Siege Tank splash radius upgrade, Archon splash radius upgrade and baneling splash radius upgrade, it would all be beneficial as well. Reality is, we don't need these upgrades, because it changes gameplay very little for these units. If they need to be more effective at what they do, then balance should dictate this by adjusting correct splash values, not by throwing in menial upgrades that act as placebos to tier 3 matchup issues.

And yet, Zerglings need a speed upgrade. You glossed over this before, saying that opens up "gameplay options." But what gameplay options does it open up? All it does is make them do more damage over time. It is functionally almost identical to giving them double damage. And the Hellion already starts with a bonus vs. Light; all the upgrade does is make them more effective against the units that it is already effective against.

Mutalisk doesn't exactly counter anything specific, and the splash is very much a residual effect of its primary damage.

Which is only true when less than half of the Mutalisk's damage comes from the splash. This changes when it does 10 to its target and 11 to others.

[RamiZ]

Mutas do not have any problems in Tier 3, and if it did, they aren't being solved with +bounce. It's a nice-to-have upgrade, but so is a damage upgrade.

Ok so tell me one unit in SC2 that doesn't have upgrades. I will tell you, it is Mutalisk. If you count those already upgraded units.

I'm not saying take out the splash and adding it back in, I'm saying increase the radius, which in effect is similar to adding an extra bounce to Mutas.

Effect is similar. You don't have splash, so you are hitting one unit. With upgrade you are hitting 3 for example. But when unit do have splash it is already hitting 3 units. With upgrade it starts to hit 5 units, don't know what is useless or bad with that...

And as Nicol said, every upgrade is damage over time upgrade in its own way.

[Triceron]

Justifying an upgrade for a unit because it simply doesn't have one is bad design. Why don't we have +splash radius upgrade for tanks to help them kill more lings with less tanks? Why don't we give Archons +splash radius so they would be used more often in games than now? Archons and Banelings don't have upgrades, should we give them upgrades too? Hey, look, the Hydra doesn't have any either, we should give it an upgrade as well?

Blizz removed range upgrades and folded em in. They removed movement upgrades for some units as well, folded them in. Why? Same reason why Muta doesn't need an upgrade for splash. Because the unit should already be effective at what they do.

Upgrades are used to gate tech progress. Zerglings are 'slow' and 'attack slow' early game so they're in line with every other tier 1 unit. You upgrade them, they fall in line with higher tier units. T3 type upgrades are meant to open up late game viability. Mutas have no problem in the end tier that needs to be justified with an upg. By no means would they be too powerful with 4 bounces in T2, and by no means does making them have 4 bounces in T3 change their use. Would you ever say "I'm not going to use Mutas in tier 3 because they have only 3 bounces"? Because I would say that to Lings if they don't get attack speed, to Lurkers if they don't get range upgrade, to Colossus if they don't get attack upgrades, etc. These units NEED the upgrades to stay viable late game. Muta does not.

Also the upg in question is +1 bounce, not +2. There is a pretty big difference. Adding +1 same as adding +2, don't make the distinction that I'm arguing JUST splash damage. My point is +1 bounce is a minor upgrade that doesn't change T3 muta play. In effect, because the muta already has splash, it is similar to a damage upgrade.

Ultimately, why do Mutas need more splash damage to stay competitive in Tier 3? What is wrong with simply balancing this unit without upgades.

[RamiZ]

Justifying an upgrade for a unit because it simply doesn't have one is bad design. Why don't we have +splash radius upgrade for tanks to help them kill more lings with less tanks? Why don't we give Archons +splash radius so they would be used more often in games than now? Archons and Banelings don't have upgrades, should we give them upgrades too? Hey, look, the Hydra doesn't have any either, we should give it an upgrade as well?

That is cause Siege is already an Upgrade for a Tank, Archons would be too strong with an Upgrade since they are somehow free units that are one of the strongest units in the game with splash and a lot of HP. And Banelings do have upgrades, they have speed upgrade, and Hydras do have speed Upgrade and can be morphed into Lurkers. So your point at this fails.

So what upgrade do you want for Mutas? I was giving an example of +1 bounce, since they do not morph to Brood Lords anymore, and Tier 3 is full of units that counters Mutas perfectly well, I don't see reason why should I use Mutas in Tier 3. Unless they give them some sort of upgrade.

[DemolitionSquid]

Archons aren't free.