Mutalisks legacy

[Nicol Bolas]

The base units are still there, have still valid strategies and probably preferred by the majority of players coming into SC II.

My point is that the timings are different.

Timing attacks are based in part on the build times of units and buildings, but also on knowing what the enemy is going for. IE: standard play. Without some developed idea of standard play, you can't effectively make a build to exploit a timing window, because you simply don't know when that window will be.

There can't be timing windows until you have a functioning metagame.

There is no 3-Hatch Muta to curtail the Marine ball.

The point is, the mutas inherent badness comes from there never being a game situation where you should have 1200 gas for relatively ineffectual fooling around IN SC 2.

Assumed "relatively ineffectual fooling around."

Is that so? Well, I'll be damned, your proof is staggering. Please elaborate at least.

You have offered no proof other than "look at a different game, and pretend that everything transfers over exactly."

The entire point of the new Nydus Worm mechanics is to allow for huge harassment of the enemy base with minimal cost.

No, it isn't. Nydus-based harassment can be shut down very easily; one flying attacker is all it takes. Nydus is the equivalent of drop harassment: semi-strong, but easily shut down if you want to.

Is building 4 turrets in ones main and natural-line really that huge a loss? From my estimates, that's 800 minerals vs. X 100min X100 gas for mutas. Enough Marines means you can skimp on those turrets.

So, let me get this straight. I throw down a Spire. Seeing that, you throw down some turrets. Seeing that, what reason would I have to build Mutalisks from that Spire? You've already spent more on turrets than I have on Mutalisks.

And if you sell your turrets? Well, it won't take long at all for me to get 8 Mutalisks in your mineral patches.

As for the Raven, I couldn't disagree more. Karune on the exact same topic has merely said Zerg players have time to react, not that it's not cost-effective to use HSM, if you get to a certain range. The fact that Mutalisks are the best units to avoid it is negated by their vulnerability to it.

That makes no sense. If the HSM is avoided, it does no damage. So however vulnerable Mutalisks might be to HSM if it hits them, it will never hit them. HSM isn't like Irradiate. Indeed, it is specifically designed to not be like Irradiate.

HSM, even if you cast it on units that are directly on top of you, still takes a moment before it can explode (this was added after BR2). In that time, the Mutalisks will be elsewhere.

And even if everything is like what you said, you're better off using other units

Overseers and Mutalisks both fly. They have easy access to the enemy base. "Other units" do not. Acid Spores + Mutalisks will eat both defenses and SCVs.

Critical masses of Marines will break through roach lines, unless the Zerg keeps pumping ground Units. If this happens, the Terran player can build Marauders and whoever microes/uses the abilities of their units better, wins. As it should be. If they go Mutalisks instead, you win.

You seem to forget that the Zerg are the fastest race at switching unit composition. By the time those Marauders show up, the Zerg player will have either Hydralisks or Mutalisks to deal with them.

You will not win a unit composition-based battle with the Zerg.

i think that the main change to the muta is that it wont cover all ur air needs, as for the actual build of the game. By making the corruptor a unit apart, and not a muta evolution, the game play for this unit will change a bit... but just a little. Of course i hope that they change this for the game release.

Um, Mutalisks never covered all "ur" air needs. That's why Scourge existed. That's also why Scourge don't come from Mutalisks, and why having Corruptors come from Mutalisks would be incredibly silly. AtA only units are reactionary; making them take longer to be created makes them less useful as reaction forces.

[KadajSouba]

Um, Mutalisks never covered all "ur" air needs. That's why Scourge existed. That's also why Scourge don't come from Mutalisks, and why having Corruptors come from Mutalisks would be incredibly silly. AtA only units are reactionary; making them take longer to be created makes them less useful as reaction forces.

Well but you could play an entire game without using the scourge, and there are planty of games like that, while u NEEDED mutas if u wanted to take the fight to the air. Unlike protoss and terrans, were you have several units that you can use depending on ur needs, Zergs ALWAYS needed mutas.

So that looks like the real reason why Corruptor was separated from muta, not to substitute scourge (that really is silly), but to make zerg air less dependant of one single unit.

Well just putting my two cents. However i like the old school and i want my mutalisk to mutate.... LOL

[Triceron]

Your justification for the muta being the Zerg's end-all solution for air is very misplaced. There's no reason why the Muta should be the only reason for Zerg to go air.

Overall this really confuses me on your stance on the muta. You seem to argue points that the Muta is useless and should be removed - but at the same time you want the Muta to retain its role as the Zerg's go-to air unit. Which is it?

[LegacyofTerra]

My point is that the timings are different.

Timing attacks are based in part on the build times of units and buildings, but also on knowing what the enemy is going for. IE: standard play. Without some developed idea of standard play, you can't effectively make a build to exploit a timing window, because you simply don't know when that window will be.

There can't be timing windows until you have a functioning metagame.

There is no 3-Hatch Muta to curtail the Marine ball.

OK, let's try this again. Assuming the goal for SC 2 is competitive play, knowing certain statistics of units and interactions with other units, certain things can be assumed. First off, in competitive gaming, you want to do things in a cost-efficient way. That means that you probably won't build 12 infestors to go on a Infested Terran drop harass raid. You can, sure, and it should even be really awesome to create 2*4*12= 96 marines in your opponents mineral line, for a great number of lolz, yet doing that means a huge sacrifice and might be shot down rather easily by certain tech the opponent is sure to get. Like Ravens. Building Mutas will be a lot like that.
Metagame WILL exist. I'd like units to remain useful even AFTER it's established. Mutalisks might be useful before, but definitely not after, as there WILL be timing windows. That will be due to the high cost. Therefore, why include a unit that seems to be made out of being terrible?

Assumed "relatively ineffectual fooling around."

Let's call it a strong hunch. Like Mass-Infestor Harassing being a terrible idea, but a bit weaker.

You have offered no proof other than "look at a different game, and pretend that everything transfers over exactly."

That might be because that's the first best thing we have to predicting it. Then again, you might also be thinking that Creationism should be taught in schools because Evolution IS JUST A THEORY AND CANNOT BE PROVEN 100%. (I did NOT want to offend anyone's beliefs, I just hate that kind of argument. Please let's not start a religious debate.) If not, then sorry, the argument sounds the same to me. We have units nearly identical in a lot of regards, with differences clearly outlined, underlined and the fact that you can make any assumptions at ALL is that you know how certain situations should turn out. I still haven't heard an explanation why you think mutas don't get used past the early game in Professional gaming of SC 1, though the counters are not at all dissimilar.

No, it isn't. Nydus-based harassment can be shut down very easily; one flying attacker is all it takes. Nydus is the equivalent of drop harassment: semi-strong, but easily shut down if you want to.

Assuming that is true, it's still better than Muta Harass, cause you'll not lose a huge number of resources when it fails, yet the enemy had to sacrifice resources to tech and build a unit it wouldn't use otherwise. And you can make it a lot stronger just shooting the aerial unit with the corruptor, which can subsequently be used for other things, like be kept in store for medivac sniping/defending against drops. Mutalisks are not as good at that, because they'll just get torn to shreds by anything even remotely AA-ish. Engaging something with mutalisks is an easy way to get them killed, mostly in a non-cost effective way, unless he goes 100% Tanks/Marauders, in which case you might try out the Brood Lord instead.
Other raiders have functionalities, like the Reaper's d8 charge, the Hellions flame attack roasting Zerglings by the dozen and the Stalker being the probable bread and butter of the Protoss army. Zerg adaption comes with the use of generalists (Hydras/Zerglings), and specialists, and the Mutalisk is overshadowed in all respects by better units.

Another thing - why do you think a single air unit is the counter?

So, let me get this straight. I throw down a Spire. Seeing that, you throw down some turrets. Seeing that, what reason would I have to build Mutalisks from that Spire? You've already spent more on turrets than I have on Mutalisks.

And if you sell your turrets? Well, it won't take long at all for me to get 8 Mutalisks in your mineral patches.

I'll need the turrets anyway. They help me fend off possible drops, and I only need them near my mineral line. Possibly also near my Barracks, but thanks to Reactors, I have a lot smaller area to cover. Short term investment keeping me safe for the rest of the game. If your Mutalisks come close to destroying one, I'll even get a refund . I do admit it was foolish of me to say I should sell the turrets every time now that the Mutalisks are dead, but it could also give me a lot of money to push through and destroy you. The huge amount of money you spent on your Mutalisks won't be refunded.

That makes no sense. If the HSM is avoided, it does no damage. So however vulnerable Mutalisks might be to HSM if it hits them, it will never hit them. HSM isn't like Irradiate. Indeed, it is specifically designed to not be like Irradiate.
HSM, even if you cast it on units that are directly on top of you, still takes a moment before it can explode (this was added after BR2). In that time, the Mutalisks will be elsewhere.

So you'll always have just the right amount of attention focused on your Mutalisks for that never to happen? Boy, are you ever good, even pros will sometimes lose their Mutalisks due to that. I can bet money on it, if you'd like to. But that's a rather safe bet, because Mutas are unlikely to be used. Mutas are micro intensive, and like other units, WILL get pretty hardly owned by the HSM if you don't pay attention. That's not even counting the new GTA turret the Raven got according to a SC-L Raven overview (September 2009). You might retreat prematurely to avoid the HSM, just for the Terran to place free Turrets that decrease your chances of success.

Overseers and Mutalisks both fly. They have easy access to the enemy base. "Other units" do not. Acid Spores + Mutalisks will eat both defenses and SCVs.

IF it works the way you like to think it does with no proof whatsoever. I really see no reason why you shouldn't just Zergling drop at the same time to save up precious gas and probably minerals as well. Or better yet, to use a Nydus Canal to get your Zerglings there without researching Drop. Flying isn't THAT big of an mobility advantage if you can instantly move your entire army to any accessible point of the map for 100 minerals.

You seem to forget that the Zerg are the fastest race at switching unit composition. By the time those Marauders show up, the Zerg player will have either Hydralisks or Mutalisks to deal with them.You will not win a unit composition-based battle with the Zerg.

And you seem to forget that in order to adapt, the Zerg still need resources. Building a flock of Mutalisks severely reduces your resource pool that you use to adapt. That's exactly why going Mutas is a bad idea.
You use Marauders when the Zerg has gone Roach-heavy, as your existing Marines already own Hydras and Mutas in equivalent numbers. The 3 more damage that the hydralisk does to Marines makes them more equal, yet still not able to fight on equal footing. It's hardly composition-based if you delay your push to be more well-rounded and therefore more secure against what he might throw at you.

Your justification for the muta being the Zerg's end-all solution for air is very misplaced. There's no reason why the Muta should be the only reason for Zerg to go air.

The Reason Zerg should go air is the Corruptor and later the Brood Lord. Thought I was rather clear on that :S

Overall this really confuses me on your stance on the muta. You seem to argue points that the Muta is useless and should be removed - but at the same time you want the Muta to retain its role as the Zerg's go-to air unit. Which is it?

It is the former option. I don't even understand why the Zerg NEED go-to-air to begin with. All tasks the mutalisk can perform can also be performed by other units, mostly better. The Zerg are already very strong, and not having Mutalisks wouldn't hurt them one bit.

[KadajSouba]

Your justification for the muta being the Zerg's end-all solution for air is very misplaced. There's no reason why the Muta should be the only reason for Zerg to go air.

Overall this really confuses me on your stance on the muta. You seem to argue points that the Muta is useless and should be removed - but at the same time you want the Muta to retain its role as the Zerg's go-to air unit. Which is it?

You are talkin to Terra right???

[Triceron]

Yes, it was directed at Terra.