Mutalisks legacy

[ArcherofAiur]

Man I wish this forum had never heard the word gimmick.

[Triceron]

I love your loaded questions, Nicol. Love em. Keep up the great work

[Draco]

What makes a damage upgrade (outside of the +1 attack upgrade) less "gimmicky" than adding an extra bounce with some damage modification?

There is no difference. They're both banal modifications to the unit. I'd rather it have more dimension.

[n00bonicPlague]

I think the Mutalisk is gonna be just fine. It has strengths unmatched by the Corruptor and Brood Lord. Likewise, it has weaknesses that the Corruptor and Brood Lord make up for. Players will find that they need the Mutalisk whether they like it or not. The greater problem for the Zerg right now is the Roach. There is no reason to have it — at all.

[MattII]

Not really sure if +1 bounce really counters marines. I mean if you simply boosted the muta's damage, you pretty much get the same effect without being gimmicky.

Okay, let's look at the total damage dealt. for the current Muta the total is 10+3+1 (I think) which equals 14, but with this new mechanic it's 10+7+3+1 which adds up to 21 damage spread over 4 targets. Really no help?

[Triceron]

I could ask you if you think a +7 damage bonus is effective for the mutalisk too.

I never said extra bounce was no help, I said you could easily up the muta's damage without adding the bounce. You want 7 damage? Balance the Muta and add 4-2-1 to their basic attack. I'm for keeping things simple and effective, and if the Muta isn't performing well in Tier 3, then it's ultimately a balance issue. Adding an extra bounce is pretty much the same as doing a balance tweak that adds damage. If it really needs that added damage, scale it through their basic attack upgrades. Having an upgrade that adds a bounce is arbitrary, and it's the reason why they folded in things like range upgrades on Hydras/Goon-Stalker.

[Nicol Bolas]

Adding an extra bounce is pretty much the same as doing a balance tweak that adds damage.

Like giving Hellions an upgrade to their damage vs. Light. Or giving Zerglings an attack speed upgrade.

And while it is similar to just increasing their damage, it is not the same. More bounces spreads AoE. This makes them more effective against clusters of units without making them more effective against single-targets.

[ArcherofAiur]

Why are people calling the muta attack AoE. It doesnt hit an area of effect.

[Triceron]

Hellions and Zerglings need to be more efficient in later tiers due to tech progression. Mutalisks are generalists that are pretty much effective all the way through, similar to Hydralisks. Throwing an arbitrary upgrade onto the unit gives the misconception that it needs it to stay competitive in tier 3, which it does not.

At the moment its primary use IS single-target, people aren't making mutas under the assumption that their ability to hit multiple targets is the best counter to marines and such. Mutas are not M&M counters. Zerg have T3 splash in the form of Ultralisks and Lurkers. Then we have the brood lords, which kill marines in 2 volleys + mantaling fodder. Mutas are not needed to counter marines or masses of enemies, they are great harassment units.

Mutas used in groups rely on focus fire killing power. The splash is secondary. Extra bounce shouldn't be needed as an incentive to be used beyond tier 2.

Hellions with Light damage makes them very effective mass T1 and caster counters. Lings with attack speed makes them effective glass cannons up into late game. Mutas with an extra bounce is a 'nice to have' that doesn't effectively change Mutas in any interesting way, similar to an overall damage upgrade. It's not like you're adding bounce to a unit that didn't have it, or you're giving it a high damage bonus vs ___. You're giving one more bounce to a unit that atm is being used to focus fire hit-and-run units to death.

[Nicol Bolas]

Why are people calling the muta attack AoE. It doesnt hit an area of effect.

Same basic concept. And it has a handy acronym that's only 3 letters long.

Mutalisks are generalists that are pretty much effective all the way through, similar to Hydralisks. Throwing an arbitrary upgrade onto the unit gives the misconception that it needs it to stay competitive in tier 3, which it does not.

These two sentences do not make sense together. You first claim that Mutalisks are effective "all the way through." Then you say that Mutalisks do not need to stay competitive at Tier 3. Either Mutalisks aren't competitive at Tier 3, or they are. Which is it?

From what I can tell, they aren't. In SC1, they were used either to make Guardians or to snipe specific units. Hardly good utility for a generalist. Nothing in SC2 would seem to change this.

Mutas used in groups rely on focus fire killing power. The splash is secondary.

Hardly. If you took away the splash, Mutalisks would be of substantially reduced utility against one of the basic uses of Mutalisks: worker killing. Those bounces matter. In the 7 attacks that it takes to kill one SCV, you've done 1/3rd damage to a second. So when you get to attack him, he goes down easier.

Almost half of a Mutalisk's damage is done to units that aren't the primary ones being attacked. That's far from "secondary". This upgrade would make Mutalisks more reliant on those bounces.