Mutalisks legacy

[Nicol Bolas]

Since the last attack would be negated by the most basic of armor, I'm not sure that it would be too powerful if it weren't for Acid Spore-like buffs.

All attacks will do some damage, even if the armor value is greater than the attack strength. I think the minimum damage is 0.5 or something like that.

Of course it is limiting but in a good way.

What I meant when I said yours was a limited thought was that it's based on a fundamental predication that Mutalisks without SC1-style Muta micro are ineffective, that they cannot be effective, and that no harassment a player can do with Mutalisks will be cost effective.

This is a basic failure of imagination on your part; your belief that there is nothing the player can do to make Mutalisks worthwhile. That is what is limited and limiting. It is the same thought that says, "Vultures are useless." This was the prevalent attitude before people figured out how to use them in SC1.

My point is that the usage of Mutalisks should be subject to discovery. There's nothing about Mutalisks that makes them useless for harassment without Muta-micro, especially in a new engine.

Furthermore, if Mutalisks are exactly as you say, it wouldn't take much to change this. If they're not cost effective at harassment, drop their gas cost by 75 gas. Or raise their Hp a bit. Or up their bounce damage. Or any one of a number of minor changes that would fix things.

You don't have to take a sledgehammer to every problem just because it looks like a nail.

Muta micro is the one thing from Starcraft 1 that should absolutly hands down, 100% work EXACTLY the same. Down to the split second.

Why? Because it's such a delicate skill based on two exploits of shoddy programming in the SC1 engine? Because it's such a commonly used skill that it should never be changed?

Neither of these is a compelling argument. Skills should not transfer 1:1 from SC1 to SC2, even on units that remain relatively untouched. Having a new game should mean having new skills to master.

And most important of all, gameplay born of exploits and hackery like this, gameplay that is not a reasonable outgrowth of rule interactions (stupid things born of programming optimizations, like making patrol react faster than attack) are not things that should be promoted or legitimized. I'm against patrol micro, not because of its gameplay effect, but because it uses patrol, which doesn't make sense in that it affects the unit so differently from just attack/move. It's an idiosyncrasy that should be removed ASAP.

In short, if Blizzard wants Mutalisk micro similar to that of SC1 in SC2, that's their call. But it should not be a click-for-click equivalent.

[Draco]

Muta micro is the one thing from Starcraft 1 that should absolutly hands down, 100% work EXACTLY the same. Down to the split second.

There's nothing wrong with touching certain aspects of gameplay. What Blizzard would say is that we don't want just different, we want better. We should take what was so good about Mutalisk micro and expand upon on it. Most other units have had a facelift in one way or another, so it would probably be a welcome change.

Perhaps something that could help Mutalisks handle Stalker + Blink a little better and start fixing Tier 2 Zerg viability?

[ArcherofAiur]

Why? Because it's such a delicate skill based on two exploits of shoddy programming in the SC1 engine? Because it's such a commonly used skill that it should never be changed?

Because thousands of fans love it as one of the most exciting things that makes SC a great esport. Hows that for a reason?

[RamiZ]

Basically Mutalisks are the only harassers Zerg has, so I don't think they will be bad at all!

[sandwich_bird]

What I meant when I said yours was a limited thought was that it's based on a fundamental predication that Mutalisks without SC1-style Muta micro are ineffective, that they cannot be effective, and that no harassment a player can do with Mutalisks will be cost effective.

This is a basic failure of imagination on your part; your belief that there is nothing the player can do to make Mutalisks worthwhile. That is what is limited and limiting. It is the same thought that says, "Vultures are useless." This was the prevalent attitude before people figured out how to use them in SC1.

My point is that the usage of Mutalisks should be subject to discovery. There's nothing about Mutalisks that makes them useless for harassment without Muta-micro, especially in a new engine.

Furthermore, if Mutalisks are exactly as you say, it wouldn't take much to change this. If they're not cost effective at harassment, drop their gas cost by 75 gas. Or raise their Hp a bit. Or up their bounce damage. Or any one of a number of minor changes that would fix things.

You don't have to take a sledgehammer to every problem just because it looks like a nail.



Why? Because it's such a delicate skill based on two exploits of shoddy programming in the SC1 engine? Because it's such a commonly used skill that it should never be changed?

Neither of these is a compelling argument. Skills should not transfer 1:1 from SC1 to SC2, even on units that remain relatively untouched. Having a new game should mean having new skills to master.

And most important of all, gameplay born of exploits and hackery like this, gameplay that is not a reasonable outgrowth of rule interactions (stupid things born of programming optimizations, like making patrol react faster than attack) are not things that should be promoted or legitimized. I'm against patrol micro, not because of its gameplay effect, but because it uses patrol, which doesn't make sense in that it affects the unit so differently from just attack/move. It's an idiosyncrasy that should be removed ASAP.

In short, if Blizzard wants Mutalisk micro similar to that of SC1 in SC2, that's their call. But it should not be a click-for-click equivalent.

You say the muta micro in this new engine should be left to the player discovery yet you admit that glitches should not be promoted as gameplay mechanics. For this same reason (glitches "should not be promoted") I believe they should make the unit useful from the beginning. It is not a lack of imagination from my part to say that the mutalisk without his glitches is useless in his current state but rater a good observation. The unit has beend used for years by the hands of dedicated players and yet, only with the usage of glitches was he ever useful. Since the mutalisk will once again be put in similar situation as before, one can only expect that without his glitches, the only way he could once again be used is by the usage of new glitches (something that should not be promoted) or by stat change/addition of an ability/etc.

Anyways, if a stat change should be made to the muta, it's definitely more HP.

On a side note: The vulture is a bad example. It took way too much years for people to understand their usefulness(and honestly every unit should have a good use/role from the start) and also part of the reason why the unit is now so good is because of this patrol glitch.

[Nicol Bolas]

Because thousands of fans love it as one of the most exciting things that makes SC a great esport. Hows that for a reason?

Pretty crappy. You can create sufficiently exciting gameplay without relying on programming mistakes.

You say the muta micro in this new engine should be left to the player discovery yet you admit that glitches should not be promoted as gameplay mechanics.

Totally not the same thing. There's a difference between "discovering how to actually use a unit," and "discovering a glitch that makes a units stronger."

Valkyries were written off as totally useless for a long, long time. Now in TvZ, Valkyries are seeing limited play time as part of advanced Mech builds. That is the kind of discovery I'm talking about.

The unit has beend used for years by the hands of dedicated players and yet, only with the usage of glitches was he ever useful.

That's totally untrue. Mutalisks were actually used in the days before Muta micro was invented. Muta/ling, with a team of Zerglings with air support, was a very common strategy. And yes, Mutas were used as harassment too.

It took way too much years for people to understand their usefulness

And why is that? Because they were too limited in their thinking. They used Vultures a bit, saw other people using Vultures a bit, and thought that they were useless.

[Draco]

Okay, since Mutalisks harass every unit they engage, why not help them in the most direct way possible? They are vulnerable to shots when they swoop in to attack, so why not have an ability to evade the shots? Each Mutalisk could be able to evade all normal ranged projectiles within a 0.Xs window every Ys. It would basically be a researchable active ability with a decently long cooldown.

It'll be perfect for avoiding discrete volleys of enemy fire -especially when Stalkers (with Blink) are chasing you down- and it's balanced by the fact that it's not particularly useful against constant fire.

It would create a dramatic experience for all parties involved (observers/players) because this lends itself to a greater number of close calls in a given game. Best of all, it would look really cool. They could do a crazy bat-wing deflection or an aerial maneuver that only the Mutalisk can do.

Remember that gas is a more costly commodity now, so that same 100/100 needs to mean something more.

[Nicol Bolas]

researchable active ability

False start. If you want it on a Zerg unit, it has to be passive.

Now, I don't think it's a good idea even if it were passive (the next attack made against a Mutalisk does no damage, followed by an X-second cooldown). It biases the Mutalisk too much against units that attack slower, like Stalkers, Vikings and such, rather than against things like Marines.

[Draco]

False start. If you want it on a Zerg unit, it has to be passive.

Now, I don't think it's a good idea even if it were passive (the next attack made against a Mutalisk does no damage, followed by an X-second cooldown). It biases the Mutalisk too much against units that attack slower, like Stalkers, Vikings and such, rather than against things like Marines.

I feel like they want Mutas to be countered by Marines. Zerg can have active abilities.

[Triceron]

Zerg units do have active abilities. It's called Burrow, and it's present in 80% of the ground units. This is the reason why you don't see two active abilities on units. Just because we haven't seen it before does not mean it can't work for the game, SC2 has proved this over and over again by breaking its own rules with new design elements. One example is movement while burrowed.

I don't think the Muta is the right unit to have an ability though, since it is still very much a generalist unit with great potential. Yes, it's a weak unit to enemy attacks, but that's because it's such a great harasser when used correctly. It has splash, it moves quickly, and they can stack relatively close. I don't think this unit should specifically counter anything, or have any gimmicks to make it more offense, defensive or support than it already is. The muta is supposed to be a massable all-purpose air unit.