Mutalisks legacy

[Nicol Bolas]

Basicly the same advantages the ground units have with burrow.

But air units don't work like ground units. Burrowing for ambushes on the ground is easy because ground units are limited by terrain. You know they're going to have to pass through location X to reach your base, so you lay a trap.

Air units aren't. Indeed, air units can go where you can't burrow. Not unless you're going to allow burrowing in water/space.

Well i would actually acept anything new that would change the zerg gameplay a bit

And this is the real disease with regard to many of the forum postings on the Zerg.

I will not accept "anything new". I, like Blizzard, will only accept good ideas. Good ideas that fit the Zerg race. This is not a good idea, so no matter how "new" it happens to be, it sucks so it shouldn't go in.

[Draco]

Honestly, I think the best thing they could've done for the Mutalisk was give him a superior pathing system and a better physics engine. Mutas were already very micro-intensive, so the more fluid movement they were given, the more versatile the micro execution becomes.

Expanding on its mobility, as opposed to tacking on the next gimmick, seems to be the better course of action.

[Quirel]

Well, I've got to agree with Nicol Bolas about gimmicks. I would prefer a well done Zerg to one that's new for the sake of being new.
However, as opposed to an upgrade for +1 range, how about one that changes how the attack works?
An upgrade would be, for example, one that splits the glaive wyrm every time it hits.

So, it hits the first unit, and instead of ricochetting, it splits into three wyrms that do three damage each and go to independent targets. At the second hit, each wyrm third is split into an additional three, doing one damage each.

So, instead of 9(1)-3(1) 1(1), it would be 9(1)-3(3)-1(9).

What I think this will improve is mutalisk utility against loads of small ground units. Therefore, instead of Mutas and Lings in ZvZ, you might have to branch out into other units.

Go ahead Nicol, prove me wrong!

[DemolitionSquid]

So, instead of 9(1)-3(1) 1(1), it would be 9(1)-3(3)-1(9).

What I think this will improve is mutalisk utility against loads of small ground units. Therefore, instead of Mutas and Lings in ZvZ, you might have to branch out into other units.

That would be way too powerful.

[Quirel]

Since the last attack would be negated by the most basic of armor, I'm not sure that it would be too powerful if it weren't for Acid Spore-like buffs.

However, by tier three, the units on the ground would be powerful enough to fight back (Vikings, Marines with health+medivac, Stalkers which (I think) have longer range.

[RamiZ]

Well, I've got to agree with Nicol Bolas about gimmicks. I would prefer a well done Zerg to one that's new for the sake of being new.
However, as opposed to an upgrade for +1 range, how about one that changes how the attack works?
An upgrade would be, for example, one that splits the glaive wyrm every time it hits.

So, it hits the first unit, and instead of ricochetting, it splits into three wyrms that do three damage each and go to independent targets. At the second hit, each wyrm third is split into an additional three, doing one damage each.

So, instead of 9(1)-3(1) 1(1), it would be 9(1)-3(3)-1(9).

What I think this will improve is mutalisk utility against loads of small ground units. Therefore, instead of Mutas and Lings in ZvZ, you might have to branch out into other units.

Go ahead Nicol, prove me wrong!

So instead of hitting 3 targets, you are saying it should hit 13? With same damage as hitting 3? Nicol doesn't have to prove you wrong. Only by seeing number of targets that is 13 you should know that that mechanic is broken.

Mutalisks should have an upgrade for one more bounce from their attack. Tier 3 upgrade or whatever, because I feel Mutalisk doesn't fit like Zerg unit if it doesn't have some kind of upgrade. Every other unit does.

[Quirel]

Yeah...
So, as an alternative, drop the 1(9) level and have it bounce only once, hitting four targets for a total of 18 damage.

[sandwich_bird]

OMG, the horror! You can't Muta micro exactly like in SC1! Stop the presses! And Stalkers don't walk around drunkenly if you leave them alone for 2 seconds! The catastrophe!

Guess what? You're going to have to figure out how to micro again. You know, what with this being a new game and all.

The fact that mutas can't micro like in SC1 IS bad. It makes the unit useless. If they can't harass properly because they can't micro properly there is no good reason to build the unit. Why take this branch that works 1/50 times when you can build something that has better chance of working?

Furthermore, stacking and the patrol micro that allows the back-and-forth attack movement are not the same thing! They are two different things, based on two entirely different glitches.

Well duh but we're talking about muta micro here, not the different glitches involved in doing it. Muta micro involves both of these glitches.

This is a limited and limiting thought. You're basically operating under the assumption that Mutalisks are 100% ineffective unless you can use them exactly as they were used in SC1.

Of course it is limiting but in a good way. It removes a bad option: a mutalisk that operate exactly like in SC1 but withouth the popular micro associated to it. Mutalisk CAN be effective without this micro but not if you keep them exactly like they were in SC1. Mutalisk in SC1 are NOT a good unit choice without their micro. So basically, make the unit different. I thought this was the point of this entire thread...

This is the same mode of thought that allows people to believe that good pathing is bad for the game, or that you need to add mindless busywork instead of meaningful choices to make effective macro. It comes from a basic failure of imagination: the inability to see what could be due to being too busy looking at what is.

Way to miss the point and then accusing that other guy for the same act that you commit... First of, I always was and always will be in favor of better pathing. Micro involve "button mashing" whether you like it or not. This is what micro is all about. It doesn't have to be completely stupid because your unit's AI is weak but it will always involve pressing numerous keys and/or clicking a lot and so a lot of "busywork". It is not mindless because when you decide you need to micro, you're taking strong decisions. You are taking away apm that could be spent on macro and putting them in micro instead. This has a lot of repercussion on the game.

Honestly, I think the best thing they could've done for the Mutalisk was give him a superior pathing system and a better physics engine. Mutas were already very micro-intensive, so the more fluid movement they were given, the more versatile the micro execution becomes.

Expanding on its mobility, as opposed to tacking on the next gimmick, seems to be the better course of action.

That would indeed be a good start.

[ArcherofAiur]

Muta micro is the one thing from Starcraft 1 that should absolutly hands down, 100% work EXACTLY the same. Down to the split second.

[Triceron]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IkemoZZCvM