An Interesting Solution to the Hydralisk Problem.

[protoswarrior]

Sorry to be "off-topic" and to nitpick, but I couldn't help notice that no one said anything about the OP's comment about the Hydralisk melee attack. Just to give a correction:

The Hydralisk does both ranged and melee damage to ground units and ranged damage to air units. Hydras don't attack by melee only; that's zerglings. They kept their old attack, but gained melee attack as well for close-range units.

You may continue the discussion now ^_^



PS:

my opinion, the hydralisk should stay as is. There is no point in changing it as without it, the zerg loses a multi-purpose unit that's cheap and quick to build, unlike for the other 2 races (except maybe for stalkers...)

[Nicol Bolas]

You could give the hydralisk an upgrade that makes it so it's GTA attack is only GTA and it's GTG is a melee attack(as proposed by Eligor), and here's my proposal: but the GTG attack grows stronger.

Yeah, that changes nothing. Zerglings are smaller, cheaper and faster at dealing damage to ground units. These melee-Hydralisks would only ever be useful if they could, cost-for-cost, outperform Zerglings. And if they could do that, why bother with Zerglings, except for the short period of time when you simply don't have these melee-Hydralisks.

See, this is why it's so difficult to change only one of the big 3 Zerg units. You're always either stepping on someone else's toes, or leaving a big hole in the Zerg that looks remarkably like your unit used to look. You have to change at least two of them in order to have the freedom of design you need to make a new kind of generalist.

stalker is a NEW unit, new name, new role, new mechanics, new attack, new model, new feel, and apparently made as a new unit lorewise. How can it be a dragoon, when they will being seeing each other in the campaign as different unit.

Names, models, and lore are irrelevant to this discussion. This is about gameplay. If you remodel and rename the Hydralisk, it's still a Hydralisk as far as the game is concerned. It does the same things as a Hydralisk. The Zerg will be just as unchanged from such cosmetic differences as they are now.

The Stalker got additional roles, but the Stalker never lost any roles that the Dragoon had in SC1. It does what the Dragoon did, but it also does a couple of other things. It's a Dragoon with a new power, not a "NEW unit".

The Immortal is a new unit.

[Perfecttear]

@nicol bass.

stalker is a NEW unit, new name, new role, new mechanics, new attack, new model, new feel, and apparently made as a new unit lorewise. How can it be a dragoon, when they will being seeing each other in the campaign as different unit.

Because blizzard said so, and they are the boss. The stalker has been called a dark dragoon by Dustin

[electricmole]

Names, models, and lore are irrelevant to this discussion. This is about gameplay. If you remodel and rename the Hydralisk, it's still a Hydralisk as far as the game is concerned. It does the same things as a Hydralisk. The Zerg will be just as unchanged from such cosmetic differences as they are now.

The Stalker got additional roles, but the Stalker never lost any roles that the Dragoon had in SC1. It does what the Dragoon did, but it also does a couple of other things. It's a Dragoon with a new power, not a "NEW unit".

The Immortal is a new unit.

How about the hellion? if thats the case then i assume you think the hellion is just a vulture or an old unit.

lets check.

hellion - new flame attack which deals splash damage, no spider mines, but i believe has the same stat and movement speed as the vulture. Very similar role w/ the vulture but it feels like a new unit.

stalker - new laser attack, BLINKS, i believe has lower stat and more vulnerable than the dragoon. Very similar role w/ the dragoon but feels like a new unit, the blink just like the hellions linear flame attack makes all the difference of labelling both as a new unit aside from its obvious look and name.

If they gave the dragoon a blink ability, now that is still an old unit.

They could have just made the vulture back and gave it flame thrower, but no they introduce a new unit which feels and look completely new w/ new mechanics but still covers up more or less the role of the removed unit (vulture/dragoon).

I think the better way to say it, that the stalker is a new unit that is kinda similar with the old sc1 dragoon.

Well if ever the hydralisk will get remodelled and get a changed name, then it was done purposely, meaning it may have a new attack role, new mechanics, etc... thus it is already a new unit. just like the stalker lorewise iti s already is.

Because blizzard said so, and they are the boss. The stalker has been called a dark dragoon by Dustin

dark dragoon? well good it is still new unit.

[Triceron]

I personally consider Stalker a new unit. Being a cheaper dragoon with blink is a pretty big difference.

Nicol made the consideration that Hydras have +50% damage vs Armored to make up for the fact that Armored units have more HP; Stalkers don't have this even when Dragoons had Explosive damage. Dragoons also had range upgrades, which Stalker doesn't get. Effectively the Dragoon was a heavier unit that counters heavy units better than light/medium. Stalker is the opposite, having much more early game focus.

Dragoon was essentially an early tank, having long range, high damage output; a siege tank with air attack and no siege mode. Stalker is more of a light vehicle that depends more on mobility and numbers, sorta like a goliath before Hellfire.

[Nicol Bolas]

hellion - new flame attack which deals splash damage, no spider mines, but i believe has the same stat and movement speed as the vulture. Very similar role w/ the vulture but it feels like a new unit.

That's because it is a new unit. The Vulture could act as territory denial; the Hellion can't. Hellions can carve their way through large swathes of low-grade Zerg units; Vultures can't (the best they can do is kite/kill Zerglings). Position is everything to good Hellion use; Vultures don't care so much about where they are when they shoot. Etc.

These units do different things; that's what makes it new. One has abilities that the other lacks, and vice-versa.

The Firebat shares more in common with the Hellion than the Vulture. Indeed, the only things that makes people think they're similar are its place in the tree (base Factory unit) and its general look (buggy vs. hoverbike).

stalker - new laser attack, BLINKS, i believe has lower stat and more vulnerable than the dragoon. Very similar role w/ the dragoon but feels like a new unit, the blink just like the hellions linear flame attack makes all the difference of labelling both as a new unit aside from its obvious look and name.

The "laser attack" is a visual change; it means nothing for gameplay. It has slightly lower stats, but it will still be acting as a Dragoon in the Protoss's arsenal. Hellions don't act like Vultures.

The Stalker has gained abilities, but there is nothing the Dragoon has that the Stalker does not also have. This is what makes it nothing more than a modified version of the Dragoon.

They could have just made the vulture back and gave it flame thrower

And took out Spider Mines. At which point, you can best be sure that everyone would be calling it VINO: Vulture-In-Name-Only.

Dragoons also had range upgrades, which Stalker doesn't get.

That's because they start with that range.

Nicol made the consideration that Hydras have +50% damage vs Armored to make up for the fact that Armored units have more HP; Stalkers don't have this even when Dragoons had Explosive damage.

There's a reason for that; it's simply compensation for Blink micro. It's expected that each Stalker will be contributing more than their Hp worth of damage to each battle. It's expected that Protoss players will make some effort to save their Stalkers, so they don't need a bonus vs. Armored.

[blackholexan]

If GtG melee attack of Hydralisk had some sort of bonus (vs armored to give just an example) they wouldn't overlap with zergling in my opinion.

Look at this:
Baneling ---- bonus vs Building
Roach ---- bonus vs Light
Hydralisk ---- bonus vs Armored

Another advantage in changing GtG attack of the Hydralisk would be to change the Hydra's attack animation vs Air: no non-sense arc attack but a straight shoot towards the enemy, that would be lorewise too

[KneeofJustice]

They could do some serious reworking...

Like what if hydra GtA was strong (as it is now)

GtG was weak but ranged.

And then they would have a THIRD ATTACK: melee ground to ground.

This would be melee, but STRONG (like, zealot-strong)

They could then change the creep-speed mechanic to apply only to slithering units (above-ground infestor, hydralisk, maybe add another one?) and make it very strategic for zerg players to use hydras in their melee mode (dance/fire TOWARDS a target, until they surround it and then hack it to pieces etc)

Personally though, i think the hydra renaissance should focus around a game-changing ability like blink. It needs something that spices it up a little for SC2.

I also think that the muta needs to be reconceptualized. Right now i dont get the impression that blizzard has a larger plan for the zerg: they are just thinking of cool abilities (hey guys what if a unit regen-ed SUPERDUPER FAST???) and not really thinking about the larger changes this race needs.

I have so much more to say, but i will leave it at that.

[Nicol Bolas]

i think the hydra renaissance should focus around a game-changing ability like blink.

Zerg units do not have active abilities unless their spellcasters (or unless it's burrow).

not really thinking about the larger changes this race needs.

That's because they don't really need anything.

The Terrans needed a lot of work. 2/3rds of the Terran matchups involve Siege Tanks, which are slow, push-type units. This was the most effective weapon in the Terran arsenal, but it destroyed any ability for the Terrans to be mobile.

The Protoss needed some work too. The Reaver was too dependent on having a Shuttle, so they made something better. The Scout was beyond useless, so they got much more useful air units. And so on.

All of these new abilities and such are as much about fixing SC1 problems as making things new for the sake of making new things.

The Zerg didn't really have the problems the other two races had. With the exception of the Queen, every Zerg unit was useful and every Zerg unit had its place in the pecking order. Some of those places might not come up very often (mass air for Devourers), but even then, the unit was there and available.

So what do you give to the race that already has everything? The only real way to make it "new" is to completely tear it down and start over from scratch. And that doesn't necessarily make it better, just different.

[Triceron]

New Hydra evolution is the kicker.

I have a feeling we'll see one in the expansion to be a strong ground AA.