An Interesting Solution to the Hydralisk Problem.

[Quirel]

Since nobody else wanted to post this, but wanted a thread about it...

OK. Several people say that the Hydralisk is holding back the Zerg Renaissance (or as Perfecttear would say, "Renesanse")
In the "Save a Zerg breed!" thread, Eligor proposed changing the role of the Hydralisk to dedicated AAA. It has its current ranged attack for attacking air, but attacks ground units with a melee attack, finally putting those scythes to use.

Blackholexican expanded the idea further:
1)The Hydralisk and the Roach would no longer overlap, although this does not imply, and was never meant to imply, that the Roach doesn't need a massive tweaking.
2)The Roach could possibly be moved to tier one (where they might be more useful) and the Hydralisk moved to tier two.
3)Loss of GtG would make the Mutalisk more important (although it needs some updating as well)

Some issues:
1)Auto attack. Unless the Hydralisk is MEANT to hold its own with melee attack (and with Zerglings, there isn't really a reason to do so) having them break ranks to attack a nearby group of 'rines isn't going to be good. Of course, there's hold position, so this is up for debate.
2) Melee units would become MORE deadly against the Hydralisk, as fewer in a group of Hydralisks would be able to attack a group of zealots that's laying into them. Of course, you can dance them around so they can all get close enough to attack, and you'll be guarding them with Roaches or Mutalisks, but again, this is up for debate.

And so... Let the theorycrafting begin.

[Nicol Bolas]

Eligor proposed changing the role of the Hydralisk to dedicated AAA.

Dedicated to car repair?

2)The Roach could possibly be moved to tier one (where they might be more useful) and the Hydralisk moved to tier two.

A more specialized GtA Hydralisk at Tier 2 with Roaches at Tier 1. Where have I heard that before?

Blizzard tried this: it failed. Taking away the Hydralisk's ground ranged attack won't make it fail less.

Furthermore, the Zerg already have an anti-air Tier 2 unit. It's called the Corruptor. They don't need a ground unit that specializes in anti-air. Which is probably one reason why the Tier 2 GtA Hydralisk failed.

[MattII]

bad post, mods delete this please.

[Quirel]

Dedicated to car repair?

*Slowly* Anti-Air Artillery...
Bullets as opposed to missiles.

A more specialized GtA Hydralisk at Tier 2 with Roaches at Tier 1. Where have I heard that before?

I'm pretty sure that the Roaches played a huge part in that problem.

Furthermore, the Zerg already have an anti-air Tier 2 unit. It's called the Corruptor. They don't need a ground unit that specializes in anti-air. Which is probably one reason why the Tier 2 GtA Hydralisk failed.

So... the Terrans never should have had the Goliath and the Valkyrie?
I admit that my analogy is suspect, as the Valkyrie was never used quite as much as the Goliath was. But this IS a way to change the Hydralisk up, and hopefully offer some new strategies for the Zerg.

[Nicol Bolas]

So... the Terrans never should have had the Goliath and the Valkyrie?

Terrans are not Zerg. Zerg units are either the 3 generalists, or a very clear specialist in a field that no other unit impacts. There is no overlap between Zerg specialists. Because the Zerg can most easily switch unit compositions, there is no need for some degree of overlap to tide you over until you get the actual unit that does this job. Zerg don't have to make due with what they have; they can always get the particular specialist.

[Triceron]

Keep the Hydra a generalist, not a specialist. No reason to change it to a specialist, they have plenty of other units for that.

I'd rather see another Hydra evolution though, if it turned into an AA specialist through a new unit that'd be cool.

[SaharaDrac]

If either of these units needs to be changed, it's the Roach; not the Hydra.

[Josue]

hmm right. well, keep the Hydralisk generalist then how to make roach more specialized and keep it interesting so hydras can be improved or moved to a more comfortable tier...?
EDIT
SO, Hydralisks must be improved, and roaches too, but they must be kept generalists while roaches are made even more specialized...
I remember there was a thread in which someone was talking about adding hydralisk attack a special ability: make it have corrosive spines that deal a little extra damage over time!

[Eligor]

The basic idea was to make the Hydralisk more vulnerable and powerful at the same time, since melee allows to give them more damage per attack without making them unbalanced as well as allowing for a more powerful GTA attack, and making the ranged Roach a target of higher priority.

Ideally of course, the Roach should a melee unit, if it's to be a really effective tank.

[Quirel]

The basic idea was to make the Hydralisk more vulnerable and powerful at the same time, since melee allows to give them more damage per attack without making them unbalanced as well as allowing for a more powerful GTA attack, and making the ranged Roach a target of higher priority.

I suppose, if this IS to be done, then it would probably be best as an evolution to the Hydralisk...

The thing is, I always considered fighter AtA and dedicated GtA to be separate roles. For example, while GtA provides area of denial against air units, fighters (like the Wraith or the Scout) can actually chase down enemy units and kill them.

Mutalisks can do damage against ground or air, and Hydralisks can do damage against ground or air. One could say that there is an overlap between two generalists, but the differences in the way those units were used were big enough to give them both a niche.

So, I'd risk the idea that two specialists might be different enough in use to justify a similar role.

Ideally of course, the Roach should a melee unit, if it's to be a really effective tank.

Not really. We've got another thread stating that the Roach should do acid spore damage, which would make it an effective tank.

Terrans are not Zerg. Zerg units are either the 3 generalists, or a very clear specialist in a field that no other unit impacts. There is no overlap between Zerg specialists. Because the Zerg can most easily switch unit compositions, there is no need for some degree of overlap to tide you over until you get the actual unit that does this job. Zerg don't have to make due with what they have; they can always get the particular specialist.

Fine, you've convinced me.
At best, we at least got this settled, which would not have happened in the last thread.