I think the Lurker should be scrapped...

[GRUNT]

I like to think of a defining trait of the Zerg as a certain "aaaaaaaah don't let it get near me" factor.

Stuff like Zerglings and Banelings really get that feeling across, and I felt that Lurkers in Brood War also had that effect. Even though they have a ranged attack, you ideally want to use them as assault units, burrowing right in the face of the enemy, as opposed to at a distance.

Although there is no more Dark Swarm in SC2 to give Lurkers cover, I suspect that the Infestor's ability to slow and immobilise enemies will allow Lurkers to still be effective, especially since Lurkers have longer range now.

[Pandonetho]

I love the lurker, it's a great unit. The position is important (how close can I get to the enemy to maximize damage before my lurkers are in danger of dying?), it has a lot of strategical uses, it has weaknesses and a unique stlye of play, it's melee but can shoot up and down cliffs, it's dodgeable, can be used with hold lurkers to ambush units and can be put on top of ridges (like on heart break ridge) for massive advantages. I think it's one of the most awesome Zerg uses, very applicable to many situation with clearly defined roles.

[Operatoring]

The moving while burrowed is the mechanic that the zergs need, just like the protoss Warp in. It just need to be balanced and tested but it cant be done. This is the kind of mechanics that SC2 needs to take its place among the new generations, just like SC1 did at its time.

I suppose the people that don't like a mechanics like this one are the same old granpas that think that the mutas "stacking" is a really strategy mechanic, when it was really some sort of glitch of the old SC1 engine.

I say: Give the Lurker burrowed movement. Its tier 3, and by the time its available to u, all ur enemies will have their "superpowered" tier 3 units... And as far as i know, zergs dont have cliff climber units... so this could replace that.

Regards

GREAT IDEA! I say we let the Siege Tank move slowly while in Siege Mode too! Spine Crawlers should be able to move slowly while still being able to attack too! Or maybe these are all retarded ideas.

If you let the Lurker move while burrowed, you completely remove the balance and skill/strategy from the unit. Sure the unit becomes more powerful, but more powerful does not equal better. Units should have specific strengths and specific weaknesses, and there should always be trade offs. If the Lurker could move while burrowed, it would mean there would never be a reason to un-burrow it, unless you needed it in a spot far away RIGHT NOW.

Lurkers are a good unit because for them to advance in a push or an attack, they must first reveal themselves and remove there ability to attack. This leads to high risk/high reward situations. Do you run your Lurkers just in range to hit 1 or 2 of the enemies units? Or do you expose yourself further so the spines hit there whole army?

[Nicol Bolas]

Lurkers are a good unit because for them to advance in a push or an attack, they must first reveal themselves and remove there ability to attack. This leads to high risk/high reward situations. Do you run your Lurkers just in range to hit 1 or 2 of the enemies units? Or do you expose yourself further so the spines hit there whole army?

To be fair though, siege-range Lurkers don't work that way. In SC1, you needed to get as close as possible before burrowing the Lurkers, because by the time they burrowed and fired, the enemy army was almost out of range. In SC2, with the range upgrade, not so much.

It's still a silly idea to remove the primary weakness of Lurkers, though.

[Operatoring]

To be fair though, siege-range Lurkers don't work that way. In SC1, you needed to get as close as possible before burrowing the Lurkers, because by the time they burrowed and fired, the enemy army was almost out of range. In SC2, with the range upgrade, not so much.

It's still a silly idea to remove the primary weakness of Lurkers, though.

I know. I think Zerg is going to play out just like SC1. The Lurker needs to be scrapped along with one of the three.

[Triceron]

Siege range lurker is dumb though.

Look at how easily high-end players like Boxer made complete jokes out of lurkers due to their travel-over-time spines. Giving it longer range doesn't change anything.

What the lurker needs is spine travel time reduced to ensure it does damage. Instant damage like the Siege tanks is the best. Having units able to sidestep your long spines doesn't help the Lurker one bit, and may even be a waste of an attack cooldown if the unit strafes the lurker spines to get closer. It would even be better to have the attack changed to a cone instead of line as well. Anything to guarantee the lurker gets its hits in.

[Nicol Bolas]

What the lurker needs is spine travel time reduced to ensure it does damage.

Considering that we've never seen the siege Lurker, and thus have no idea how fast the spines travel, I'd say that your fear is unfounded.

Further, dodging spines requires micro. And while you're microing, you're not attacking (free hits for any Hydralisks/etc). And not all units can do it; Thors won't be dodging any spines.

[DemolitionSquid]

Considering that we've never seen the siege Lurker, and thus have no idea how fast the spines travel, I'd say that your fear is unfounded.

Further, dodging spines requires micro. And while you're microing, you're not attacking (free hits for any Hydralisks/etc). And not all units can do it; Thors won't be dodging any spines.

There is a video of the new Lurker, a TvZ match. Its spines travel quite slowly.

[Triceron]

Thors won't be dodging any spines.

You treat Lurkers like Siege Tanks; you either take the hits and counter attack, or you gtfo. I don't really know what else to say, do you really need to dance lurker spines with a large, slow, tank unit?

You can dance with small units, the very units a lurker's splash is best against. Having longer range only really works against static defenses, but it doesn't really solve the issue of lurkers being counterable with pure micro. Unlike in early SC1 when no one really tried to dodge lurker spines, there are many pros who have ample practice against them. Considering this is now a T3 unit, dodging is going to impact the lurker even more.

[Nicol Bolas]

You can dance with small units, the very units a lurker's splash is best against.

SC2 Lurkers do double damage against armored units. So it's not like these shots are wasted. Plus, SC2 has more lower-tier massable armored units.

it doesn't really solve the issue of lurkers being counterable with pure micro.

How many Lurkers do you suppose it takes before there's no safe room to dodge to? 3, at most? Anything more than that, and there's no safe ground to dodge to.

And how many units do you think you can dodge with this? 5? Maybe 8 at the outside? At Tier 3, if you're using Marines, they number in the 30+ at least. You can't Lurker dodge 30+ Marines.

And what are you doing with this micro while my Hydralisks are having their way with the units you're microing (which, because you're microing, aren't attacking)?

Lastly, I would point out that, in SC1, the Lurker wouldn't be able to even fire at these targets. The extra damage you do at this range is just gravy.

Considering this is now a T3 unit, dodging is going to impact the lurker even more.

No, it's going to impact it less. At Tier 3, a player can't be bothered to micro 300 minerals worth of Marines around a Lurker trap. He's got thousands of minerals and gas tied up in Thors, Siege Tanks, Banshees, etc.

At Tier 3, Marines are nothing. They cost nothing. They cost little more than the time it takes to produce them. They aren't worth taking the time to save from a Lurker trap. They're a dime a dozen.