Overlord Dive ability: Mechanic to avoid easy targeting; sort of macro related

[Santrega]

Um, Terran losing a few Depots might not be a biggie, but the Protoss losing a few Pylons is, because their whole industry depends on the things.

That is assuming there isnt a pylon nearby to keep powering all of the buildings. Now, if only one pylon could power one building, protoss would definitely be in the same shape. Additionally, cannons are better at defending both against air and ground, making it more realistic to have better protection against drops.

Not just that, but stalkers are going to be much better at following and sniping overlords with blink. I know that this ability wont do anything to prevent that particular threat, but less threats would still be a good thing. If a couple of units that can hit both air and ground in one form is the only major threat, thats much better than every unit able to shoot at air being a major threat.

[Triceron]

If overlords were such a crutch for Zerg, this sort of imbalance would have been brought up in SC1. SC2 hasn't really added anything other than the macro mechanics. Even then with the macro mechanics to factor in, it's not like you're going to need to make overlords in a time when you need units the most.

Overlord harassing and killing is the same as any kind of harassment, and if they die then they die. When workers die, they ALSO use larvae to create, and you lose a lot more workers in a well-played rush than you do overlords.

The price of overlords matter, but there's nothing that makes overlords any more of a target just because they're air units. It's not in a player's best interest to speed tech AA to rush overlords, and when they do it's a perfectly preventable strat by simply making a few Spore Colonies and grouping overlords near them. By the time AA comes into play, Zerg players will have Hydralisks and/or Mutalisks. It's not as if the Zerg are in a huge disadvantage.

[Santrega]

If overlords were such a crutch for Zerg, this sort of imbalance would have been brought up in SC1. SC2 hasn't really brought anything to impede on that other than the macro mechanics. Even then with the macro mechanics to factor in, it's not like you're going to need to make overlords in a time when you need units the most.

Overlord harassing and killing is the same as any kind of harassment, and if they die then they die. When workers die, they ALSO use larvae to create, and you lose a lot more workers in a well-played rush than you do overlords.

The price of overlords matter, but there's nothing that makes overlords any more of a target just because they're air units. It's not in a player's best interest to speed tech AA to rush overlords, and when they do it's a perfectly preventable strat by simply making a few Spore Colonies and grouping overlords near them. By the time AA comes into play, Zerg players will have Hydralisks and/or Mutalisks. It's not as if the Zerg are in a huge disadvantage.

In what game are you referring to? Because I rarely see a situation where corsairs are stopped by spore colonies, and the last thing you want to do against protoss is clump overlords together over an area. Psi storm anyone?

Yes, I agree with you, drones are more of a larva hog than overlords are, but at the same time, overlords are always a requirement when they get killed, because they will always effect how many units you can build. In mid-late game, chances are you wont have to immediately replenish your drones, while with overlords, you usually will need to, unless you built 5-10 overlords more than you required at one time, or did such an awesome job spending your resources as you get them the entire game that you require the drones for more resources.

[MattII]

Not just that, but stalkers are going to be much better at following and sniping overlords with blink. I know that this ability wont do anything to prevent that particular threat, but less threats would still be a good thing. If a couple of units that can hit both air and ground in one form is the only major threat, thats much better than every unit able to shoot at air being a major threat.

But it's going to give you more threats to worry about, because you'll be trading off on Phoenixes in favour of Zealots, DT and Immortals, Viking Air Mode in favour of, well, Ground Mode, Marauders, Banshees, Tanks and Hellions, and Corruptors in favor of Zerglings, Banelings, Roaches, Lurkers, Ultralisks and Brood Lords. Plus they'll be incapable of escaping any enemies whereas at least while flying they'll be able to 'maybe' get the enemy to chase them over GtA defences.

[Triceron]

In what game are you referring to? Because I rarely see a situation where corsairs are stopped by spore colonies, and the last thing you want to do against protoss is clump overlords together over an area. Psi storm anyone?
.

Corsairs are gone. The unit you're worrying about is the Phoenix, and if it WERE to harass your overlords, they could easily Anti-Grav your Overlord in 'Dive' mode. This idea does little to counter air harassment, you're best off with static defense or depending on your units.

And Psi Storm? Really, so this Dive ability will help against that?

[Santrega]

But it's going to give you more threats to worry about, because you'll be trading off on Phoenixes in favour of Zealots, DT and Immortals, Viking Air Mode in favour of, well, Ground Mode, Marauders, Banshees, Tanks and Hellions, and Corruptors in favor of Zerglings, Banelings, Roaches, Lurkers, Ultralisks and Brood Lords. Plus they'll be incapable of escaping any enemies whereas at least while flying they'll be able to 'maybe' get the enemy to chase them over GtA defences.

I really think you are missing the entire point.

Heres an example:

An AtA unit comes to attack your overlords, or even 3-4. You click your overlords and start to run, from wherever they currently are, to a more safe area. During that time, you can click dive on each overlord as they get close to death, which will drop them down, and if you do so over water, you have a better chance of making them harder to kill against ground units, but not impossible. The whole idea is to delay death until you can bring help, and lose less overlords, not prevent the loss of all overlords.

Basically it would add more flexibility to the overlord's microing ability, while not allowing a pro to permanently dodge most types of units.

Additionally, not sure if you caught this or not, I suggested that the overlord could be able to drop units while in this dive state. I like the thought of being able to move in and make the choice to land them in a heavy AtA area. Chances are they will have a ground force or defense of some kind, but it at least gives you the choice, and far more flexibility in certain situations.

Corsairs are gone. The unit you're worrying about is the Phoenix, and if it WERE to harass your overlords, they could easily Anti-Grav your Overlord in 'Dive' mode. This idea does little to counter air harassment, you're best off with static defense or depending on your units.

And Psi Storm? Really, so this Dive ability will help against that?

Thats why i said what game are you talking about, because it was difficult to tell, yes if you are talking about sc2, corsairs are gone.

Yes, it actually will help against psi storm, for one, you wont have to keep them close together, because you can spread them out and minimize the loss. Of course if they have 10 zealots under your overlord, you wont want to dive into them, you are basically screwed in that scenario. However, if its just a few units, that delay could be enough to save some overlords.

Now with AG, they lift it off the ground, but that will use its energy, and it can only do it to one unit at a time, so if you have a small pack of overlords, you can still manage to get some away to safety.

I dont see why we are still bringing up counters though, its entirely missing the point. The point is to give the overlord more flexibility to dodge specific attacks, making it less vulnerable. I dont see how you can argue its not less vulnerable in some situations with this ability, which is the point. It's not to make it invincible against one attack, just harder to kill.

[Nicol Bolas]

You missed the primary question: if Overlords were an onerous crutch for the Zerg in SC1, why did the balance in that game work?

The simple fact of the matter is this. If what you say is true, if Overlords were as vulnerable as you suggest, then the Zerg in SC1 would have been unplayable. Dark Templar would have always worked against them, they would never have been able to mass up a huge army, etc.

And yet they do. Even against Protoss. Thus, what you're saying is not true.

The Zerg had to adapt to Overlord raiding. And yes, this means that the Zerg spend more on food than other races, since they have to replace lost Overlords. Obviously, this was not a significant detriment to the functioning of the race.

But Zerg never need to spend money on detectors. Or transports. One research and you have all the transport you need. How fair is it that the Zerg get transports for a single, flat rate, rather than having to pay for each one? How fair is it that the Zerg get free detection, rather than having to buy units specifically for detecting?

Because I rarely see a situation where corsairs are stopped by spore colonies, and the last thing you want to do against protoss is clump overlords together over an area.

Because Zerg couldn't afford the Drones for Spore Colonies. You'll notice that the Zerg could afford the larva for Scourge that have no purpose other than fending off Corsair harassment. So clearly spending a few larva here and there wasn't a big deal for them.

An AtA unit comes to attack your overlords, or even 3-4. You click your overlords and start to run, from wherever they currently are, to a more safe area. During that time, you can click dive on each overlord as they get close to death, which will drop them down, and if you do so over water, you have a better chance of making them harder to kill against ground units, but not impossible. The whole idea is to delay death until you can bring help, and lose less overlords, not prevent the loss of all overlords.

However, "an AtA unit" in SC2 is not a nebulous construct. There are 3 specific units that fit that description. Phoenixes will be able to negate this ability on the spot. And when they do, it makes your Overlord immobile, thus ensuring its death. Good job

Vikings will be able to keep fighting them so long as they dropped down over ground. Furthermore, since they're faster, they can dog your steps: whenever you get close to land, they'll beat you to it, drop down and shoot you.

The only unit you can avoid with this are Corruptors. And you're more likely to be harassed with Mutalisks than Corruptors.

In StarCraft 1, this might have been useful (though more likely, it would have been overpowering). Not in SC2.

[Pandonetho]

I don't find this all too useful. The rush to kill overlords is exaggerated I think.

Rushing to corsairs is only A viable strategy against the Zerg, not the best, not the only. As with what everyone else said, if overlords were such a crutch then why does the balance work? Don't fix what isn't broken.

Also, from what I'm reading, this dive works over water? If so, what kind of unit does it become? Certainly not a ground unit, which would lead to a whole new unit class, just for the Overlord.

The most important of all is the fact that you're adding something to the overlord that is just simply unnecessary. What are you trying to fix? It sounds like you're adding this to the ovie just for the sake of it when in all reality the overlord is fine just the way it is. It has its detriments and benefits, the unit balances itself out thus far this way so why add this unnecessary diving mechanic?

Also, how long does this mechanic last? Until you cancel it? This could lead to overlords being stronger than they should be already, why not simply ground all your overlords in your base and utterly destroy the strategy of overlord hunting? In SC1 even if you had spores or hydras often times corsairs could just tank the damage and fly away after killing a bunch of ovies. Now, all you have to to is just sit there if they come for you, and essentially waste their time for trying to rush to hunt overlords.

[MattII]

An AtA unit comes to attack your overlords, or even 3-4. You click your overlords and start to run, from wherever they currently are, to a more safe area. During that time, you can click dive on each overlord as they get close to death, which will drop them down, and if you do so over water, you have a better chance of making them harder to kill against ground units, but not impossible. The whole idea is to delay death until you can bring help, and lose less overlords, not prevent the loss of all overlords.

Spore Crawlers, Hydralisks and Mutalisks (and possibly Corruptors as well) will make short work of any small raid you attempt, and the Banshees the Terrans have inevitably dragged along will shred them as soon as they go to ground anyway.

[Godless]

Don't fix what isn't broken.

I have to agree with you, this seems like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.