How does the Roach work?

[Norfindel]

Before I even give an opinion, to help form my own opinion and any other opinions from this point forward I think it's good to bring the current statistics to the table that I have access too. There are also ways to judge the statistical advantages of DPS, range coordination, time charts and whatnot. I'm merely judging by basic elements for this conversation. Information provided may be flexible based on balance and should not be treated as law.

Unit Statitistical Comparisons

Damage

Roach: 11 damage (+3 light)
Hydralisk: 8 damage (+4 armored, same rate as roach)
Zergling: 5 damage (No bonus, faster rate of attack)

Armor

Roach: Armored (Biological)
Hydralisk: Light (Biological)
Zergling: Light (Biological)

Hit Point

Roach: 160 (1 armor)
Hydralisk: 80 (0 armor)
Zergling: 35 (0 armor)

Cost

Roach: 100
Hydralisk: 75 / 25
Zergling: 25 (Per unit as they spawn as 2)

Build Time

Roach: 27
Hydralisk: 27
Zergling: 24

Efficiency Ratios

Roach

Damage Cost: 9.09~ per damage ( 7.1428~ against light)
Hit Point Cost: 0.625 per hit point (Not counting armor and regeneration) *

Hydralisk

Damage Cost: 12.5 / 3.125 per damage ( 8.33~ / 2.083~ against Armored)
Hit Point Cost: 0.9375 / 0.3125 per hit point

Zergling

Damage Cost: 5 per damage (Faster rate of attack not included) **
Hit Point Cost: 0.7142~ per hit point

* This value can be reduced by a fraction of one over the damage value of the attacker.
A unit that does 5 damage reduces cost per hit point of the roach by 1/5th (.625 -> .5) for example. This still does not
include increased regeneration to the equation.

** This value is inaccurate due to the lack of a global equal value to judge by. If we
could determine damage per second then we could change these values to be fully
correct. All we know is that the attack speed for the Zergling is faster than the Hydralisk
and Roach. The Hydralisk and Roach have the same attack speed.

Basic jist of opinion:

I can see too narrow of a niche for this unit and agree with your point slightly. Another unit that could stand to be in the same boat is the Immortal as it's most efficient niche is also a likewise narrow situation.

I suspect that our conversation will lead more so into the angle of how to balance it further on paper which won't lead well into real scenarios. That's fine and dandy though as we're examining the unit in terms of counter analysis and not in terms of actual performance.

There are some parts of your information which I disagree with but I think with proper statistics we can reach a same page.

Regarding the roaches' damage output:

I find that statistically the roach has a similar damage output to the hydralisk. When you place it against light units, however, it's efficiency shows to be about par as well in it's current form.

• In ZvZ the roach becomes a sufficiently more efficient unit in terms of damage compared to hydralisks and could replace them in certain counter compositions leading up to mid-game.
• In ZvT, I feel they'll be more efficient against a Terran infantry army that has a low maurader count... the issue is that terrans can swiftly fix that unless there is a focus on the maurader killing. They could also work as planned base defenders against raider guerilla attacks in a pinch with proper scouting.
• In ZvT and ZvZ, 3 Roaches can one shot a worker, allowing them to be the most efficient harrassment drop to an enemy base, especially with burrow being natural to them.

If you still feel the damage of Roaches being light.. feel free to state so. But in light of the statistics I am looking at right now I believe it to be adequate.

To all reading my post:

I hope these statistics help the discussion out to alleviate questions/concerns/misconceptions about what's more powerful or not. These statistics can help you bring your own conclusion to light

It's me, or you just showed your ultra-secret unit DB?

[RamiZ]

It was at one point, but I think they may have removed that. Who knows what it's like these days.

Judging by SC wiki, which was updated in November 2009, Roach regen is 5 hp/sec, and after Upgrade it is 10 hp/sec. They can't move underground anymore, but they have Burrow without Upgrading it, and they do have faster regen while burrowed.

Building for Roaches is Roach Warren, and there you can upgrade Roach speed, and Roach Regen to 10 hp/sec.

[ArcherofAiur]

I have no doubt in my mind that with in the first week of beta people will be posting threads on how OP the roaches are.



The only complaint I have for the Roach right now is its hideous axe arms. The physiology is completly ridiculous. You cant get proper acceleration with a ball and socket joint, minimal muscle attachments, a heavy payload attached to a thin support stalk and a short lever arm constricted in movement.



MrJack on the other hand has a much better understanding of skeletal and musculature action. He even included a patella-like leverage amplifier at the crucial extension joint.

[B~E]

I like the Roach because it doesnt take gaz and its so cheap. Combined with zerglings, you might be able to put enough pressure on your opponent to prevent him from allocating ressources to tech ahead of you, while you use your unspent gaz to do just that, to reach a game-ending tech, either mass-muta or nydus worm.

I really dont see why a combo of ling, baneling and roach wouldnt be deadly in its own right.

In the OP, it is mentioned that the hydralisk is a generalist. But wouldnt be more correct to assume to the hydralisk is now filling the same role than the goliath in SCI?

[Pandonetho]

What if we make the roach a melee unit...

Well, if the roach is not much of a threat now, what if we simply up the default regen rate so that you'd need more units to actually kill 1 (or heavy fire like sieged tanks). This would be a threat if the Zerg player got enough numbers of roaches to kill light units very fast so it'd be wise to take them out sooner than to let them mass up.

[XSOLDIER]

What if we make the roach a melee unit...

Well, if the roach is not much of a threat now, what if we simply up the default regen rate so that you'd need more units to actually kill 1 (or heavy fire like sieged tanks). This would be a threat if the Zerg player got enough numbers of roaches to kill light units very fast so it'd be wise to take them out sooner than to let them mass up.

It's not a melee unit so that there's a space between it and the targets to allow the Zerglings to swarm around, and not interfere with each other's attacks.


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[n00bonicPlague]

We could do this.

[XSOLDIER]

What about keeping the Roach's damage small, but allowing it to hit 2 Targets at once? Essentially let them have 2 attacks fired at the same time, but they're each used against different units within range. This means that they'd be reduced to only 1 attack if there's only a single target within range. Sort of like a slightly less effective Mutalisk.

This would make players pay more attention to them, depending on the situation. Againtst massed units or infantry, aach Roach is pulling down the total HP of your enemy's force, in addition to the fact that not focusing on them, is bumping up the HP of the player's force because of their Regeneration. This also means that against buildings & few heavy/long range units, they're much less effective.

It would help carve the niche out for the Roach and seperate it's role from the Hydralisk. Having a +3 Light make sense, against infantry, and they'd be a viable choice when targeting AoE attacks, because you'd have to deal with the fact that each Roach is reducing a larger pool of HP, and set up like this, the Zerglings would be able to eat through a foce MUCH more easily. This leaves the +4 Armored attack on the Hydralisk letting them take care of the tougher individual units.

It would also give some really frightening anti-unit choices with Ultralisks & Roaches, or pairing them along with the Infestors, being able to stop a force of units. At this point, you'd probably need have Roaches at Tier 2, because having them too early in the game would let them rush into mineral lines, and wreak havoc being able to hit 2 workers at once.




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[The_Blade]

I believe the roach was move into lair tech because it just overwhelmed zealots and stalkers where not enought to kill themy if they where massed with lings aside. Eventually it was OP and Blizzard wanted to find a new way of using it later in the game, but now we have a weak roach.

And what if it attacked from its practically useless scythes rather than its mouth in a concept similar to spitting cobras.



Every snake has 2 hollow tooths that inject poison into their victims, but the cobra uses them to shoot poison at its victims eyes, and vulnerable areas.

[XSOLDIER]

I believe the roach was move into lair tech because it just overwhelmed zealots and stalkers where not enought to kill themy if they where massed with lings aside. Eventually it was OP and Blizzard wanted to find a new way of using it later in the game, but now we have a weak roach.

My suggestion makes Roaches a little bit more like a support unit for the Zerglings, so having that version at Lair seems a little bit more viable.

It's a little bit like the Marines & Marauders, but for the Zerg. Maraduers acting as the support to let the Marines be more effective, this version of the Roaches would be allowing the Zerglings to potentially kill more units, while the Regen would keep the Roaches safe, and in this case, attacking the Roaches would be a viable tactic, and with some good Micro, could be painful for anyone without Detectors.


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