How does the Roach work?

[B~E]

What is it about the Hydralisk's stats that in any way mimics a Goliath?

For some reason I thought it had a bonus aginst air units.

That was the case at some point in time, right?

[XSOLDIER]

For some reason I thought it had a bonus aginst air units.

That was the case at some point in time, right?

At one point in time I do believe they were given a bonus vs. Air.


X

[Kimera757]

It used to do +6 damage vs armored air units; I believe this was back when it did high damage overall, was tier 2, but had very low hit points for its cost. (The hp haven't really changed.)

[RamiZ]

It used to do +6 damage vs armored air units; I believe this was back when it did high damage overall, was tier 2, but had very low hit points for its cost. (The hp haven't really changed.)

Well it changed for 10 hp, now it has just like old hydra. While it had 90 when was tier 2. But that is not a little change at all.

[Gifted]

The point is that they wouldn't bother shooting at Ultralisks if they only did 5 damage. Or 10 damage. It's the fact that Ultralisks are big and dangerous that make them this work.

By nature of the game's natural priority, the reason why Ultraling works so well is that attempt to NOT hit the Ultralisk is a hard thing to do.

When looking at design elements of a game like this, we can look at from multiple angles. Three that are relevant to this discussion are as follows:

- Resource Efficiency
- Raw Damage
- Raw Survivability

Let's look at the old Ultraling combo with base numbers. The Ultralisk damage efficiency was despicable... the second worst in the game. But they have the highest EHP. Alternatively, Zerglings have the worst EHP with the highest damage efficiency.

Ultraling works if you do minor micro, you have to get the ultralisks in there first with the zerglings in there quick after to make it efficiency. This is due to the way the AI works in terms with targetting. Even if you move/re-attack move, it will still typically default to your previous target (which is ideally the Ultralisk)

I think that if utilized this way, the Roach can do the role it's intended to do, tank damage. And without proper focus fire, it works as a firm replacement for the ultralisk in the Ultra-Ling combo.. and is available at Teir 2. In terms of resource AND supply equivelence, the roach becomes AS effective as Ultralisks 1.8 seconds after damage is taken by 3 roaches. At that point, they simply exceed the EHP of Ultralisks in likewise comparison.

With the obviously boosted speed of the Zerglings, improved pathing/surround and unlimited selection of units, utilizing Roach/Zerglings in the exact same fashion as Ultra-Ling is a very efficient use of them, working specifically against infantry/light units as the roach does.

This is tested/analysed with units who deal 9 damage per attack or less to the Roaches.

(If requested, I can provide all the numbers)

[Nicol Bolas]

And without proper focus fire

Or until the first Roach dies and the units automatically select a new target. Which will likely be the closest Zerg unit to them: the Zerglings.

That's not much of a tank.

The Ultralisk worked in this capacity because it was melee (and thus a new selection was semi-likely to pick an Ultralisk) and because the Ultralisk took a lot of killing, thus maximizing the time the enemy wasn't shooting Zerglings.

The Ultralisk damage efficiency was despicable... the second worst in the game.

Against what? Against a unit with 0 armor, Ultralisks are pretty bad compared to Zerglings. But against a unit with 3 armor? Ultralisks lose only 15% of their attack strength, while Zerglings lose a whopping 60% of their damage output.

If you drop the Ultralisk's damage down to 10, it doesn't matter how much EHP they have. They could have 800 Hp or whatever. People will simply be able to ignore them, because they can't kill anything fast enough to matter.

Tanks must be able to threaten the enemy with damage.

Ultraling works if you do minor micro, you have to get the ultralisks in there first with the zerglings in there quick after to make it efficiency.

This almost never happens in an actual pro game. Usually, Ultralisks are roaming somewhere in the middle of a light bundle of Zerglings. You generally do not see the kind of meticulous micro you're talking about.

Indeed in some games, they don't even use lings. They just build like 12 Ultralisks and fling them at the enemy. This is quite successful, even late-game. I defy anyone to mass Roaches (as they currently stand) and expect them to do anything of value against a late-game army (even in SC1).

[Norfindel]

Nicol, you're not taking something into account: Zerglings die like shit. That means the Ultras/Roaches are being shot a lot more of the time, specially if the player using them isn't stupid, and sends them in the front, instead of letting Zerglings die uselessly.

Don't you ever seen how much time take cracklings to completely level a base? It's scary. Now, use the same cost worth of Ultralisks. You maybe want to make a coffee while you wait.

The Ultralisk's job is to take the Zerglings next to their targets undamaged. Then, it's a situation of 2 Cracklings every 1 Marine at 0 distance, Marines just lost a lot of effectivity, and they're still shooting at the Ultras for quite some time. They will be likely dead before the Ultras die.

[Nicol Bolas]

Don't you ever seen how much time take cracklings to completely level a base? It's scary. Now, use the same cost worth of Ultralisks. You maybe want to make a coffee while you wait.

No one is doubting that Zerglings do more damage over time than Ultralisks. But that doesn't change the facts that:

1: The Ultralisk's damage is significant and cannot be ignored by units unless those units want to die.

2: The Ultralisk's style of damage (slower attacks with larger damage per attack) compilments the Zergling's attack, by being disproportionately better against late-game highly armored units.

Neither of these is true of the Roach. And both of these are vital to being an effective tank. A unit simply sitting there is not a tank, even if it is in range of other units. It must actually be dangerous to be able to tank. And Roaches are not dangerous to anything that isn't already scared of Zerglings.

[PsiWarp]

I have another idea based on Acid Spores:

Corrode (Passive): Upon inflicting an attack on an enemy unit, the virulent acid will deal 3 damage per target's attack interval. Lasts 2 seconds (can be changed).

So, this is clearly an ability that does more damage per second to units with rapid attack intervals (Marines, Reapers, Hellions (?), Zealots, Disruptors, Zerglings, Hydralisks, Ultralisks, etc). The unit will receive 3 SPELL damage for every attack it makes. This makes fighting Roaches generally a bad idea, much like a situation against an Ultralisk but to a lesser extent.

Edit: The debuff doesn't stack, it renews on each successful attack from a Roach.


-Psi

[Kraziliak]

Here's my idea:

The roach's acid attacks apply a debuff that reduces damage done by the enemy to non-roach units by 40%. This debuff turns the enemy green-ish and lasts 3 seconds.

Advantages:

• The enemy is encouraged to attack the roach.
• This allows for roaches to be great in combos with weaker units.
• The roach can still burrow micro.
• Attacking the roach is optional.
• The 3 second timer allows for roaches to be microed, possibly allowing for multiple units to be "slimed".