Roachs regeneration - immortality

[Nicol Bolas]

The real problem is that Roaches are right now the only tier 1 unit that really need to be Focus Fired to be killed.

Yes, but it doesn't need to be Focus Fired. Just build Marauders or Stalkers; both of which are innately strong against Roaches.

[MattII]

Both of those units need gas, currently the Roach doesn't.

[Nicol Bolas]

Both of those units need gas, currently the Roach doesn't.

Yes, but it wasn't that long ago that they did. And with the other reshuffling in Zerg Tier 1, it'd hardly be surprising to see them get a gas cost.

[SpiderBrigade]

The real problem is that Roaches are right now the only tier 1 unit that really need to be Focus Fired to be killed...But a unit should never REQUIRES to focus fire in order to kill it.

The Roach doesn't "require" focus fire to kill, unless your units somehow automatically redistribute their fire in the worst possible way.

Let's look at the basic units first. The initial post in the thread breaks down the damage-vs-regen situation. But it completely fails to consider the cost issues. For each roach your opponent has, you will be able to afford 2 marines or 4 zerglings. Yep, that's enough to match (or, for zerglings) exceed the regen. But in a real combat, if both sides attack-move, your units will not distribute themselves equally agains the opponent's forces. They will attack the front line of his assault first. So if you had the following:

R MMM
RR MMM
RR MMM
R MMM

this is equal-cost force of Roaches vs Marines. Marines outrange roaches. The marines will target the first enemy that comes in range - soe in other words the front line of roaches will be attacked by all or most of the marines - this will be more than enough to overcome the regen and kill them.

It's even more ridiculous with Zerglings:

ZZZZ
RR ZZZZ
RR ZZZZ
RR ZZZZ
ZZZZ
ZZZZ

The zerglings will loop around to surround the roaches, and since they stack tightly there will be 4 or more Zerglings attacking each roach. Again, focus-fire will help but you will be able to kill the roaches unless he outnumbers you (in which case you lost anyway)

[MattII]

Yes, but it wasn't that long ago that they did. And with the other reshuffling in Zerg Tier 1, it'd hardly be surprising to see them get a gas cost.

Oh come on, both the Roach and the Baneling not requiring gas is a bit much don't you think, I mean, given that everything above Zealot and Marine does, surely it isn't good for 3 Zerg units not to.

[Praetor_Ixab]

i'm not too worried about balance and overpowered abilities and stats. i'm waiting for beta to be done before i start doling out judgment.

[Norfindel]

There's the possibility that we misinterpreted Karune, but the phrases:

"A single roach can defeat a single stalker due to its high regeneration, for instance, but several stalkers can defeat several roaches with focus fire."

"in theorycrafting, they seem stronger than they actually are, although specific units must be used to counter them, or additional micromanagement time be taken to defeat them. Siege tanks, stim packed marines, stalkers, immortals, dark templars, hydralisks, and any air to ground unit, are all effective at killing Roaches with a little micromanagement."


Seem to implicate that the enemy if forced to micro. If that's the case, i think that the Roach user should be forced to micro also to get an advantage, not purely by the automatic regenetation mechanic itself.
To do this, i propose that the Roach regeneration rate is slowed down for a small amount of time every time the Roach is hit, forcing the player to dance it's Roaches to really be effective. They will be pretty hard by themselves, but not immortal. They will accumulate damage and die unless rotated, thus requiring micro to force micro on the enemy, which i think, should be the way to go, instead of requiring micro from the enemy just because you built Roaches.

[mr. peasant]

The Roach doesn't "require" focus fire to kill, unless your units somehow automatically redistribute their fire in the worst possible way.

Let's look at the basic units first. The initial post in the thread breaks down the damage-vs-regen situation. But it completely fails to consider the cost issues. For each roach your opponent has, you will be able to afford 2 marines or 4 zerglings. Yep, that's enough to match (or, for zerglings) exceed the regen. But in a real combat, if both sides attack-move, your units will not distribute themselves equally agains the opponent's forces. They will attack the front line of his assault first. So if you had the following:

R MMM
RR MMM
RR MMM
R MMM

this is equal-cost force of Roaches vs Marines. Marines outrange roaches. The marines will target the first enemy that comes in range - soe in other words the front line of roaches will be attacked by all or most of the marines - this will be more than enough to overcome the regen and kill them.

It's even more ridiculous with Zerglings:

ZZZZ
RR ZZZZ
RR ZZZZ
RR ZZZZ
ZZZZ
ZZZZ

The zerglings will loop around to surround the roaches, and since they stack tightly there will be 4 or more Zerglings attacking each roach. Again, focus-fire will help but you will be able to kill the roaches unless he outnumbers you (in which case you lost anyway)

What your analysis fails to take into account is that the Roach will also be attacking (and likely focus firing) your units in return. And in early tier, they're going to be biological units, which is likewise the Roach's forte (even Marauders). And for equal cost, the Roach's DPS will likely be higher than that of the opponent thanks to it's regeneration. Therefore, you'll be losing units quicker than the Roach. This is where the problem lies. Regardless of the number of Roaches you kill, its regeneration rate remains unchanged. However, the more units you lose, the lower your DPS becomes.

For example, 4 Zerglings vs 1 Roach. The Zerglings deal 3.56 (4.56 X 4 - 15) per second where as the Roach deals 10/second (figures based off OP's original post). After 4 seconds, the Roach kills 1 Zergling where as the Zerglings have only whittled away 14 hit points. So, the Roach is still alive. However, the Zerglings have lost some firepower and its DPS is now below the Roach's regeneration rate.

Conclusion: Roach wins.

Even for long ranged units, kiting isn't an option unless you're a Colossus, Siege Tank or Lurker. This is because the time spent moving is also time spent on regeneration.

[Nicol Bolas]

I've studied BR2 carefully, and I've come to a number of conclusions. Mainly, that nothing being thrown around is accurate with regard to unit damage, firing rates, etc.

First, Roaches clearly don't do 8+8 vs. Biological anymore. At about 10:00, you can see the Roaches attacking the rocks, and they're each doing 5 damage. So they only do 5 damage vs. non-Biological.

Second, Roach regen is not constant. If you look at the BR at about 11:05-11:20, you can see the Marauder pounding on the Roach. It's regen is fairly slow. Then it burrows, and regens much faster. It's all plainly visible at the bottom. This could be a result of the slowing effect from the Marauder (unlikely) or it's part of the Roach regen mechanic: it's faster when he burrows.

Third, Marauders don't do 16+6 vs. Armored anymore. They clearly do 10x2 against armored (this might be 5+5vsArmoredx2 or something).

Basically, the conclusions of this thread are based on ignorance. Roach regen is clearly a balanceable mechanic, even if some implementations have not been balanced before.

[SpiderBrigade]

What your analysis fails to take into account is that the Roach will also be attacking (and likely focus firing) your units in return.

If the player using the roaches is focus firing, you have no right to complain about being "forced" to focus fire by the roach. I was mainly posting that in response to the people who are complaining about the roach "forcing" you to micro.

Whether the roach in general is overpowered? Too soon to say. But I think probably not, or if so it will be easy to balance.