Roachs regeneration - immortality

[Kimera757]

Again, balance discussions pre beta are bad.

I disagree in this case. The roach isn't a spellcaster, it's ability will not change every few builds. We're arguing about "is the ability useful/overpowered".

I am sure this will all be balanced for people who know what they are doing and focus fire the roaches, but what about newbs? No one ever thinks about the poor newbs in the world!

I do.

I know this stuff, but am a fairly low/intermediate skilled player. Fortunately, there's a campaign and/or tutorial where the terran newbie will learn to focus fire roaches.

If a newb doesn't bother to train themselves before going online, they only have themselves to blame.

Most units make you better if you micro, but this low tier unit forces your opponent to micro.

High templar with psi storms force the opponent to micro their troops (spread them out). I was a taught a nasty lesson (in the campaign no less) not to stack slow-moving guardians for that reason. (Instead of learning the lesson, I learned to micro queens to kill high templar. Hey, there's more than one way to save your troops!)

[Pick]

Um yes, just like how lurkers are OP against marines right?

I know the game is full of hard counters. A skilled player should be able to slap around a newbie with the right tech.

This is different. A first tier unit with no upgrades and no abilities that need activated, that forces your opponent to micro or die.

Newbie vs Newbie with one player using roaches might cause problems until people learn how to play.

I am not suggesting the problem needs fixed, skill and experience over time will fix the problem. I am just predicting the official SC2 forums will be a whiny mess of posts wanting to nerf roaches when the game is released.

[Kimera757]

I am not suggesting the problem needs fixed, skill and experience over time will fix the problem. I am just predicting the official SC2 forums will be a whiny mess of posts wanting to nerf roaches when they game is released.

They already were when roaches were first announced.

Blizzard has to have a thick skin if they want to design good games.

[MattII]

Something needs to be done about the price, this thing only costs 100/0 (4 Zerglings, 2 Marines or 1 Zealot) which is (I feel) somewhat underpriced for its power.

[Nicol Bolas]

A first tier unit with no upgrades and no abilities that need activated, that forces your opponent to micro or die.

It's not that bad. Roaches have much shorter range than most other ranged units. And the comparable enemy units, Marauders and Stalkers, are both able to take advantage of the Roach's weaknesses (range and damage-types). All without needing target firing. Oh, they'll lose more units than they need to, and Roaches will seem a bit overpowered for their cost, but they can still break through.

BTW, the Roach was not regenerating 15Hp per second in BR2. You can actually count it, and it was closer to 7-10.

[PsiWarp]

The Roach is definitely a dilemma to ZvZ more so than either TvZ and PvZ, due to its relatively high regeneration and biological bonus. With a few tweaks around armored bonus, tier 1.5 Hydralisks might provide the factor needed for breaking roach spam (alongside Banelings).

I also agree with MattII, Roach production should involve vespene. Nicol's right though, the regeneration rate does seem to be 7 to 10 per second.


-Psi

[mr. peasant]

I think a potentially major problem with the Roach is that while it might appear balanced in large scale, it might be overpowered in small scale. See, while you're focus firing on a Roach, the enemy will likewise also be focus firing your units. And in early game, when combat units are few, the enemy need only take out a small number of your units before your DPS falls below the Roach's regeneration rate.

[MattII]

Yeah, especially with burrow being practically the first upgrade, duck out of combat for a few moments, and you're right back on top, as opposed to say the Terrans who 'don't get' early game healing, or even the Protoss who have to actually run away to allow their shields to regenerate (being aware that the Stalker doesn't get Blink until tier 2).

[SpiderBrigade]

I know this stuff, but am a fairly low/intermediate skilled player. Fortunately, there's a campaign and/or tutorial where the terran newbie will learn to focus fire roaches.

Yeah, I pretty much guarantee there will be a mission where some random NPC marine says "We'd better focus on these roaches before they heal up!"

This is different. A first tier unit with no upgrades and no abilities that need activated, that forces your opponent to micro or die.

I'm sorry, focus-fire is about the lowest level of micro there is. There are plenty of units in SC/BW that will force your opponent to adjust their tactics and micro against you at that level.

[Bisso]

I'm sorry, focus-fire is about the lowest level of micro there is. There are plenty of units in SC/BW that will force your opponent to adjust their tactics and micro against you at that level.

Focus fire is indeed a pretty "simple" task. The real problem is that Roaches are right now the only tier 1 unit that really need to be Focus Fired to be killed. In SC/BW good players learned to Focus Fire on key units to change a battle to their advantage, along with alot of other microing. But a unit should never REQUIRES to focus fire in order to kill it. And since right now, only the zerg got this kind of unit early game. This is subject to be overpowered.

I am not (anymore) someone who really cares about pro-gaming. I do realise that SC2 needs to give what the pro gaming scene is wants. Mechanics helps people who micro. But I would be against any kind of mechanics that forces a player to reach a certain level of skills or knowledge to enjoy playing. And right now, the roach sounds a bit like that. But I am sure Blizzard won't make it this way if it is right now.