Examining the Macro Mechanics

[Krikkitone]

I agree the current macromechanics lack depth, but I do think they can be fixed rather than redone completely from the beginning.

The only depth they could add, is putting the spells on the same building than other vital ones (probably only accomplished for the Terrans).

Just wondering what do you mean by this?


In any case, looking at the macro mechanics one at a time to see what would make them better

1. OC/MULE
Seems to be the best, by juggling the numbers for Scanner Sweep and Calldown, they can easily be made to compete with MULE

For the MULE itself, to increase depth, giving it the ability to remotely mine might be useful. The idea that seems to have the most depth is making the MULE building with timed life that must be built adjacent to Minerals, and which collects the minerals and (at any point in its timed life) can stop collecting and send them off to the CC (with ~2-5 seconds to stop the shipment by killing it)

This provides the player with something to Do with the MULE, even when it is the preferred use of the OC

2. Obelisk/PC

Obelisks don't even contest for energy, as you cannot even use the other spells regularily where the Obelisk is built, you are going to need additional Obelisks in the battlefield, a concept that already failed with the Shield Battery. Unless Argus link is OP, nobody is going to use them outside the base.

The key there is that energy in the base is not usable outside the base...
the solution that I think would be the best is giving the Obelisks a shared energy pool.

Issues would be the recharge rate of the pool (equal to standard rate * number of Obelisks), the capacity of the pool (200, fixed..maybe upgradable to 250)

Then the issue is merely one of making sure that Shield Recharge and Argus Link are actually worthwhile for putting a Proxy Obelisk out there.

A few ideas on that
1. Increase the range of the spells (to 10-12)
2. Make the Obelisk tougher (so that it can more readily be deployed on the battlefield)
3. Make the Obelisk cheaper [and increase the cost of its abilities] so that it can more readily be deployed on the battlefield.
4. Give the Obelisk Pylon power again [but not food supply] so that it can more readily be deployed on the battlefield (not needing a Proxy Pylon to be built first... also providing all the benefits of a Proxy Pylon)
5. Make the Shield recharge Very fast, autocastable, and able to affect buildings (including the Obelisk itself)
6. Make both Shield recharge and Argus Link low enough cost that they are worthwhile.

Hell, you can even use PC from the mini-map. That doesn't even address what they wanted to do.

As for PC itself, the 'adding depth' idea is to change it from an AoE boost to a Building boost
if targeted on a Nexus it gives Probes visiting that Nexus the mineral bonus
if targeted on an Assimilator it gives Probes visiting that Assimilator a gas bonus

(the mineral bonus and gas bonus need not be the same... compare the relative value of minerals to gas, as well as the different number of probes affected in each case.)

Also to remove the "fixed time" return allow Proton charge to stack (so if a Nexus has 13 seconds of charge left, casting a 30 sec. Proton charge will give it 30+13=43 sec. not 'reset' the amount to 30.)

Queens don't have good energy contest, either. They're too slow to use the Queen outside of your base (at least to use the same Queen).

There I see two solutions that go well together
1. Make the Queen's base speed faster [so that on Creep it is faster than a Worker, but slower than an upgraded Zergling..also on Creep]

Now admitedly that doesn't solve the problem that the Queen is slower off creep, and that is where the battle is... but to solve that.

2. Make Creep Tumors much Cheaper 5-10 energy.... and focus them more strictly on generating creep, ie
make them neutral, so they don't give vision [and also won't be auto-targeted by enemy Zerg]

This means that generation of a "Creep Highway" connecting to the front/different bases would be much more likely. And would increase the energy tension with Spawn Larva.

Also make Transfusion cheaper+lower hp... say 25 energy for 100 hp, that way it is more likely to be used on damaged units for its full value.


As for Spawn Larva itself, I'd suggest making it stackable and auto-targetable (ie goes to the healthiest 'Hatchery/Lair/Hive' in a range of 4 from the Queen)
And to keep some depth in the use of the Queen...
have the Queen not generate energy spontaneously, but have it get energy from Zerg buildings by doing a "drain" sort of a non-instantaneous reverse transfusion (where it would take about 40 sec to get 100hp->25 energy... but multiple buildings could be drained at once)

[This has the side benefit of making 1 Queen/player all that is necessary.. much more fitting with a 'Queen' unit.]

To resume: i think that the current approach is just simply a bad one, it would better be re-thinked from it's very base than tried to fix.

Probably they're waiting to see what happends in beta.

Well I disagree with your first statement, but agree with your second.... I think the macromechanics (as well as various other casting abilities) are going to be what gets the most change in beta

[Norfindel]

Yes good examples of early game decision making that gives way to mid and late game repeated macro tasks. In the begining you have to decide when to send a worker to gas or minerals or scout or even help attack. This is when you have limited resources.

Now eventually there is relief of this tension and the worker mechanic transforms into a test of macro skill. Assuming there is early game need for things like scanner sweep and transfusion this is how the macro mechanics will act.

Still, workers can move around, specially when the base is under attack, or it's depleted, build important structures that define your strategy (a decision process), and in the case of the Terrans are usefull even on combat, the whole game. If they can make the macro mechanics to include at least that level of diversity, they would be acceptable, but a spell that is used all the time over the same spot is the equivalent to manual mining, which got the cut, so that clearly isn't the way.

The Obelisk is the worse of all, it cannot run away when attacked, cannot cast out of it's cast radius, and cannot move, and on top of that, all abilities except PC are best used outside of your base. Pretty difficult, considering that the damn thing is fixed there.

[ArcherofAiur]

Still, workers can move around, specially when the base is under attack, or it's depleted, build important structures that define your strategy (a decision process), and in the case of the Terrans are usefull even on combat, the whole game. If they can make the macro mechanics to include at least that level of diversity, they would be acceptable, but a spell that is used all the time over the same spot is the equivalent to manual mining, which got the cut, so that clearly isn't the way.

The Obelisk is the worse of all, it cannot run away when attacked, cannot cast out of it's cast radius, and cannot move, and on top of that, all abilities except PC are best used outside of your base. Pretty difficult, considering that the damn thing is fixed there.

Not everything needs to be able to attack. In the case of the Orbital Command, Obelisk and Queen they all have multiple uses.

[Norfindel]

Just wondering what do you mean by this?

I mean, the only really vital (key) spell is Scanner, and the only choice is if you use the macro spell, or some of the others.

In any case, looking at the macro mechanics one at a time to see what would make them better

1. OC/MULE
Seems to be the best, by juggling the numbers for Scanner Sweep and Calldown, they can easily be made to compete with MULE

For the MULE itself, to increase depth, giving it the ability to remotely mine might be useful. The idea that seems to have the most depth is making the MULE building with timed life that must be built adjacent to Minerals, and which collects the minerals and (at any point in its timed life) can stop collecting and send them off to the CC (with ~2-5 seconds to stop the shipment by killing it)

This provides the player with something to Do with the MULE, even when it is the preferred use of the OC

Yes, this was discussed before, and i think it's a good idea. I would add that the remote building must occupy the same spot than a CC would, so it cannot be used inside the base, and probably would require minerals to build the remote building instead of energy, so you trade minerals now to get more of them later.

2. Obelisk/PC


The key there is that energy in the base is not usable outside the base...
the solution that I think would be the best is giving the Obelisks a shared energy pool.

Issues would be the recharge rate of the pool (equal to standard rate * number of Obelisks), the capacity of the pool (200, fixed..maybe upgradable to 250)

Then the issue is merely one of making sure that Shield Recharge and Argus Link are actually worthwhile for putting a Proxy Obelisk out there.

A few ideas on that
1. Increase the range of the spells (to 10-12)
2. Make the Obelisk tougher (so that it can more readily be deployed on the battlefield)
3. Make the Obelisk cheaper [and increase the cost of its abilities] so that it can more readily be deployed on the battlefield.
4. Give the Obelisk Pylon power again [but not food supply] so that it can more readily be deployed on the battlefield (not needing a Proxy Pylon to be built first... also providing all the benefits of a Proxy Pylon)
5. Make the Shield recharge Very fast, autocastable, and able to affect buildings (including the Obelisk itself)
6. Make both Shield recharge and Argus Link low enough cost that they are worthwhile.

As for PC itself, the 'adding depth' idea is to change it from an AoE boost to a Building boost
if targeted on a Nexus it gives Probes visiting that Nexus the mineral bonus
if targeted on an Assimilator it gives Probes visiting that Assimilator a gas bonus

(the mineral bonus and gas bonus need not be the same... compare the relative value of minerals to gas, as well as the different number of probes affected in each case.)

Also to remove the "fixed time" return allow Proton charge to stack (so if a Nexus has 13 seconds of charge left, casting a 30 sec. Proton charge will give it 30+13=43 sec. not 'reset' the amount to 30.)

I think this could be accomplished by a mobile unit, or at least a building that can move everywhere inside the psi power field (with energy, a cooldown, or whatever). I would like to see what happends with a unit that can get a small quantity of minerals from all nearby mineral fields, but that damages ground units near the fields in the process. As you can see, i like the idea of risky remote mining that can be punished at any time by the enemy, thus, making it non-predictible. The same unit could have Argus Link and Shield Recharge. If needed, allow it to be built at quantities of one per Nexus only (warps minerals to that Nexus, or whatever).

There I see two solutions that go well together
1. Make the Queen's base speed faster [so that on Creep it is faster than a Worker, but slower than an upgraded Zergling..also on Creep]

Now admitedly that doesn't solve the problem that the Queen is slower off creep, and that is where the battle is... but to solve that.

2. Make Creep Tumors much Cheaper 5-10 energy.... and focus them more strictly on generating creep, ie
make them neutral, so they don't give vision [and also won't be auto-targeted by enemy Zerg]

This means that generation of a "Creep Highway" connecting to the front/different bases would be much more likely. And would increase the energy tension with Spawn Larva.

Also make Transfusion cheaper+lower hp... say 25 energy for 100 hp, that way it is more likely to be used on damaged units for its full value.


As for Spawn Larva itself, I'd suggest making it stackable and auto-targetable (ie goes to the healthiest 'Hatchery/Lair/Hive' in a range of 4 from the Queen)
And to keep some depth in the use of the Queen...
have the Queen not generate energy spontaneously, but have it get energy from Zerg buildings by doing a "drain" sort of a non-instantaneous reverse transfusion (where it would take about 40 sec to get 100hp->25 energy... but multiple buildings could be drained at once)

[This has the side benefit of making 1 Queen/player all that is necessary.. much more fitting with a 'Queen' unit.]

I think that they overpowered the Queen attack, and that called for the speed restriction when out of Creep. They could give it a more resonable attack, or no attack, and good support abilities to make your other units count, making it more worthy in the battlefield. I know about the Queen lore, but lore <> gameplay.

[Norfindel]

Not everything needs to be able to attack. In the case of the Orbital Command, Obelisk and Queen they all have multiple uses.

I wasn't asking for an attack on the Obelisk, i was calling attention on the fact that the Obelisk in your base cannot do anything useful besides casting PC 99% of the time. Worse, the other two spells only make sense inside your base when it's under attack. Still worse: the Obelisk is the only one that cannot move, as even the OCC can do it, even when all it's abilities can be used everywhere within vision, and it has no combat abilities, and probably isn't likely to be moved often at all.

The same for the Queen, she will just cast Spawn Larva 99% of the time, but at least she can move, so she can cast something outside of her original radius, and can attack.

With the Orbital Command, the reports are conflicting. I don't know what's going to happend with that one, and it depends a lot of how useful is Scanner vs the minerals returned. Sometimes you just need the Scanner, as Terran mobile detection is non-existant until late game.

The Achilles heel of the macro mechanics, is that they're designed to be casted over the same spot forever. No spell was ever so boring.

[Krikkitone]

I mean, the only really vital (key) spell is Scanner, and the only choice is if you use the macro spell, or some of the others.

I see, you were talking about key spells rather than key buildings.

I think some of the others could be made key... for example if all Protoss unit spells were slightly increased in cost, Argus Link might be more needed.. ie if the cost of all unit spells were doubled and the ratio of Argus Link was quarupled (1:2 instead of 2:1) it would make Argus Link key for Protoss casters (although casters would have to be cheaper to balance that out)... and That is a bit extreme.

Also Supply v. MULE is a potentially good macro choice if the values are balanced (It should be cheaper to call down supply X times than to call down the same energy worth of MULEs and order an SCV away from Minerals to build the same supply worth of Supply Depots)

Yes, this was discussed before, and i think it's a good idea. I would add that the remote building must occupy the same spot than a CC would, so it cannot be used inside the base, and probably would require minerals to build the remote building instead of energy, so you trade minerals now to get more of them later.

I would say it shouldn't cost minerals.... keep it energy and a timed life building. It should be usable inside the base.... perhaps working slower.

Possibly have it "Cap" a mineral deposit, and if the deposit is being mined by a worker, it can't mine, and its timer doesn't decrease.

I think this could be accomplished by a mobile unit, or at least a building that can move everywhere inside the psi power field (with energy, a cooldown, or whatever). I would like to see what happends with a unit that can get a small quantity of minerals from all nearby mineral fields, but that damages ground units near the fields in the process. As you can see, i like the idea of risky remote mining that can be punished at any time by the enemy, thus, making it non-predictible. The same unit could have Argus Link and Shield Recharge. If needed, allow it to be built at quantities of one per Nexus only (warps minerals to that Nexus, or whatever).

While a mobile unit/building would solve some of the issues, I think an energy pool would fit the Protoss better. (and be more unique)

I think the remote mining is interesting, but... mineral lines can be raided, you might not destroy the CC/Hatchery/Nexus, but you can kill the Workers. (which can more rapidly recover, but cost)

I think that they overpowered the Queen attack, and that called for the speed restriction when out of Creep. They could give it a more resonable attack, or no attack, and good support abilities to make your other units count, making it more worthy in the battlefield. I know about the Queen lore, but lore <> gameplay.

Well I think Queens Should have the speed restriction when out of creep, but increase their speed overall. (if that requires a decrease in their Attack, then fine.... maybe start it low and let it upgrade fast.)

The key is allowing them to more easily spread Creep... perhaps Creep should spread faster from Tumors... maybe queens should be able to lay Tumors outside of existing Creep.... but they only start generating Creep once they are covered by it.... so a Queen could 'pre-lay' a Creep highway.

The Queen should be able to support your units, and I think that Transfusion (and Creep Tumors which boost their Speed) can be good enough for that... if they are improved.

[ArcherofAiur]

I wasn't asking for an attack on the Obelisk, i was calling attention on the fact that the Obelisk in your base cannot do anything useful besides casting PC 99% of the time. Worse, the other two spells only make sense inside your base when it's under attack. Still worse: the Obelisk is the only one that cannot move, as even the OCC can do it, even when all it's abilities can be used everywhere within vision, and it has no combat abilities, and probably isn't likely to be moved often at all.

The same for the Queen, she will just cast Spawn Larva 99% of the time, but at least she can move, so she can cast something outside of her original radius, and can attack.

With the Orbital Command, the reports are conflicting. I don't know what's going to happend with that one, and it depends a lot of how useful is Scanner vs the minerals returned. Sometimes you just need the Scanner, as Terran mobile detection is non-existant until late game.

The Achilles heel of the macro mechanics, is that they're designed to be casted over the same spot forever. No spell was ever so boring.

Part of it is that these are a new type of spell. Its new and therefore scary for allot of people.

That 99% your quoting depends on allot of things. We havnt seen what can be done with an early game instant 200 hitpoint spell. And the real thing im thinking is extremely undervalued is the early game ability to recharge your energy units. Ive seen countless games where being able to cast one extra spell early game would have won the game. And thats what i think we might see with these.

See when it comes down to it the real reason people feel scanner sweep has better energy tension is cause they have seen what it can do early game.

[Norfindel]

Part of it is that these are a new type of spell. Its new and therefore scary for allot of people.

I must say that i don't find the macro spells scary at all, just simple, predictible, and boring.

That 99% your quoting depends on allot of things. We havnt seen what can be done with an early game instant 200 hitpoint spell. And the real thing im thinking is extremely undervalued is the early game ability to recharge your energy units. Ive seen countless games where being able to cast one extra spell early game would have won the game. And thats what i think we might see with these.

See when it comes down to it the real reason people feel scanner sweep has better energy tension is cause they have seen what it can do early game.

2 or 3 months of beta should throw some answers on those mechanics.
Anyways, my main issue with the macro mechanics is the boring simplicity of PC, MULE Calldown, and SL.

I think the remote mining is interesting, but... mineral lines can be raided, you might not destroy the CC/Hatchery/Nexus, but you can kill the Workers. (which can more rapidly recover, but cost)

Well, the remote-miners also cost, and maybe they could drop their minerals if destroyed, which would be able to be taken by any worker to a base to cash them in. That would be certainly interesting.

Well I think Queens Should have the speed restriction when out of creep, but increase their speed overall. (if that requires a decrease in their Attack, then fine.... maybe start it low and let it upgrade fast.)

The key is allowing them to more easily spread Creep... perhaps Creep should spread faster from Tumors... maybe queens should be able to lay Tumors outside of existing Creep.... but they only start generating Creep once they are covered by it.... so a Queen could 'pre-lay' a Creep highway.

The Queen should be able to support your units, and I think that Transfusion (and Creep Tumors which boost their Speed) can be good enough for that... if they are improved.

I think that the different Queen tiers were good, i would like to see that return, but simpler: when you are at tier 2 (Lair), your Queens get more powerfull, and the same when you are at tier 3 (Hive). That could even affect movement speed, spells, and attack, keeping the unit more interesting the whole game, save for Spawn Larva, that has really only one possible target. The main issue remains the tree macro mechanics themselves (SL, PC, MULEs), they lack complexity and choice. They are used always exactly the same, over the same place.

[ArcherofAiur]

I must say that i don't find the macro spells scary at all, just simple, predictible, and boring.

2 or 3 months of beta should throw some answers on those mechanics.
Anyways, my main issue with the macro mechanics is the boring simplicity of PC, MULE Calldown, and SL.

I dont know about you but Im going to have a heck of allot more fun calling down MULEs than hitting hotkey1, make worker every 17 seconds.

I mean talk about simple, predictable and boring

[Kimera757]

I dont know about you but Im going to have a heck of allot more fun calling down MULEs than hitting hotkey1, make worker every 17 seconds.

You probably won't; the only difference is not doing so doesn't guarantee a loss.

I mean talk about simple, predictable and boring

It kind of is.