Planetary Fortress discussion

[ArcherofAiur]

The main problem here is our design philosophies.

I, Nicol, PureWasted, and pretty much everyone else believe that SC should have as much decision making and choice as possible, and anything which cannot or does not offer decision making or choice should simply be automated.

Archer is of the opinion that build orders and repetition are the most important part of the game, and decision making should be secondary to promoting mechanical skill.

Personally, I find Archers approach to be an abomination.

The difference between us is that I dont immidiately label everything that isnt a decision as bad.

Funny thing is that I didnt always think this. I used to think just like you. For instance when I first started getting interested in competitive starcraft I thought build orders hurt the game. I was disappointed everything wasnt possible and the same things kept happening.

It was only later that I realized what this kind of structure contributes to the game.

[DemolitionSquid]

The difference between us is that I dont immidiately label everything that isnt a decision as bad.

Funny thing is that I didnt always think this. I used to think just like you. For instance when I first started getting interested in competitive starcraft I thought build orders hurt the game. I was disappointed everything wasnt possible and the same things kept happening.

It was only later that I realized what this kind of structure contributes to the game.

They contribute to mechanical skill, as I said. I just believe that mechanical skill should be less important than creative thinking and the promotion of strategy and quick thinking. You obviously think otherwise.

[Krikkitone]

Gotta love false logic.

My point stands. Ultras and Thors are very expensive, Void Rays and Brood Lords have very hard, cheap counters. Building enough to take down a PF with minimal problem could leave you very weak in another area. Which of course, is the entire point of the game - decision making - but shouldn't be ignored. I think in most cases you'd be better off attacking the workers than the PF.

The Ultras/Thors, etc. was for taking out the real problem....the Terran Bunker/Siege Tank/Turrets/Thors (the biggest ones of which are expensive gas wise themselves.)

For taking out Just a PF.... any AtG unit.... or any Siege unit
If its a PF with Missile Turrets... then you have to change over

Protoss...AtG
add a Carrier or 2 to take out Turrets, then the Void Rays finish it off
Colossi are probably easier in that case, since they have the mobility


Zerg... AtG
Brood Lord or 2 to take out Turrets
then the guarding Mutalisks help finish it off

Terrans...AtG
probably just some Yamatos or D.Matrix to handle Turrets
Banshees might be able to handle the Turrets themselves

Tanks are probably easier for Terrans


Its true in most cases you'd be better off attacking the workers... but the PF will draw attacks

But if you imagine a PF ringed with 4 Turrets, 3 Siege Tanks, 2 Thors, 3 Bunkers with Marines, that is incredibly expensive itself

550/150
+
300
+
450/375
+
600/400
+
300
+
900

3100/925

If you add on Vikings for more mobile aa those are 125 100 gas each (and those are the best counters for some of those siege Breakers) [Carriers/Motherships/Broodlords/Yamato-BC]

[ArcherofAiur]

I think challenges of mechanical skill and challanges of creative thinking skill both have their place in Starcraft.

[Nicol Bolas]

Protoss...AtG
add a Carrier or 2 to take out Turrets, then the Void Rays finish it off
Colossi are probably easier in that case, since they have the mobility


Zerg... AtG
Brood Lord or 2 to take out Turrets
then the guarding Mutalisks help finish it off

Terrans...AtG
probably just some Yamatos or D.Matrix to handle Turrets
Banshees might be able to handle the Turrets themselves

So the only viable option for each of the three races is to go to the absolute bottom of the tech tree? Aren't PFs available after an Engineering Bay, which is Tier 1?

I think challenges of mechanical skill and challanges of creative thinking skill both have their place in Starcraft.

Which gleefully misses the point on the macro mechanics. There is nothing that says that a mechanic that innately has decision making is worse for mechanical skill than one which has no decision making. Therefore, there is no reason to accept a brainless mechanic over one that actually requires human thought.

[ArcherofAiur]

Which gleefully misses the point on the macro mechanics. There is nothing that says that a mechanic that innately has decision making is worse for mechanical skill than one which has no decision making. Therefore, there is no reason to accept a brainless mechanic over one that actually requires human thought.

You a fan of tower defence maps?

[MattII]

Challenges of mechanical skill and dexterity are called micro, challenges of decision making are called macro, got it Archer?

[Pandonetho]

There is nothing that says that a mechanic that innately has decision making is worse for mechanical skill than one which has no decision making. Therefore, there is no reason to accept a brainless mechanic over one that actually requires human thought.

Why should everything involve thinking? Sure, lots of things that are repetitive should be automated, a lot of things already are. However, what reason is there to believe that having a thought process for every single click in the game is better than having some that come from second nature through practice?

I don't support the Obelisk, I support having lots of thinking involved, but I also support having SOME mechanical second nature clicking. I think it's absolute BS coming out of people's mouths who think that every single click in the game should require decision making. That's called completely removing one set of skills from the game.

Why do snipers in FPS games always aim for a headshot? That seems pretty redundant to me, it's a no brainer. I don't get why everyone complains about aimbotters, it's just automating the boring process for you. I don't get why anti-tanks always shoot tanks, it should just be automated so that everytime a tank comes into range your character automatically pulls out a rocket launcher to shoot at the tank. More brainless activities.

You know what else is brainless? Pong, I don't get why the game doesn't just play itself so that everyone can watch it, after all, some of us want brainless mechanical skills to be removed, every single click should involve a thought process.

[DemolitionSquid]

You a fan of tower defence maps?

Irrelevant.

Challenges of mechanical skill and dexterity are called micro, challenges of decision making are called macro, got it Archer?

Misguided.

@Pandouche

Mechanical skill + thought > mechanical skill alone
Also, stop comparing FPS mechanics to RTS mechanics. Its apples and oranges.

[Pandonetho]

Mechanical skill + thought > mechanical skill alone
Also, stop comparing FPS mechanics to RTS mechanics. Its apples and oranges.

Sorry your opinion isn't fact. Also, good job providing evidence for any of your claims. /Sarcasm.

You do know that micro doesn't require a thought process for the most part right? It's brainless mechanical skills, so if you want to argue for removing micro by all means go right the hell ahead.

Splitting your marines at a lurker trap is not a thought process, it's called not wanting your units to die.

Or are you now going to debate that there are situations where you want your marines to die?

Also I would love to see you actually argue instead of saying "apples and oranges sorry your argument is invalid" like a little child.