IgroMir 2009: imba.Adolf[RA] reports his SC2 opinions

[Pandonetho]

I just find it stupid. The Colossus can be loaded/unloaded in a split second. So can the Ultra. So can every other unit. But the Thor requires a unique animation which by definition slows down its reaction time? I don't buy it.

Yes, let's call something stupid because it deviates from the other races, but yet, we have no clue how it will affect the balance of the game.

Because you know, it's cool to call something stupid just because it deviates from what you consider the norm.

I mean, why the hell should Zealots take up 2 spaces instead of 1? Marines after all only take up 1 space, this is lame. So do firebats, so do all Terran infantry, wtf is with Protoss, they're st00pid because Zergling only take up 1 space too.

Point - it's a gameplay mechanic made to look cool, stop saying it's stupid until you can prove it causes imbalance.

Why should lurkers take time to burrow while all other Zerg units only take a split second? Stupid if you ask me, but hey, it's a DIFFERENT unit! That might be why.

The Colossus =/= the Thor. They are both massive, that's the ONLY thing they have in common. Lurkers =/= Zerglings, they're both Zerg, that's the ONLY thing they have in common.

[Gifted]

Its like j00 can read my mindz!

Teehee, I think you should check my post again, darn me for editing

[DemolitionSquid]

Point - it's a gameplay mechanic made to look cool, stop saying it's stupid until you can prove it causes imbalance.

I'm not saying it causes imbalance. I'm saying it really is just STUPID.

Teehee, I think you should check my post again, darn me for editing

I still agree. I think if the Thor gets a special animation, the other races massive ground units should too. It just makes sense to me, its not based on any "evidence."

[Pandonetho]

Oh, so it's just stupid because you say so, it's not stupid because of imbalance you say, it's just stupid because it affects gameplay.

The Protoss already HAVE an animation that makes sense, their little beam me up beam me down thing.

[Gifted]

Yes, let's call something stupid because it deviates from the other races, but yet, we have no clue how it will affect the balance of the game.

Because you know, it's cool to call something stupid just because it deviates from what you consider the norm.

I mean, why the hell should Zealots take up 2 spaces instead of 1? Marines after all only take up 1 space, this is lame. So do firebats, so do all Terran infantry, wtf is with Protoss, they're st00pid because Zergling only take up 1 space too.

Point - it's a gameplay mechanic made to look cool, stop saying it's stupid until you can prove it causes imbalance.

1. While it's ok for him to have the opinion that something is stupid, it's just as fine for you to hold the opposite opinion. What I think will get us further is asking "If you think it's stupid, what do you think would be a smart replacement?"

About your final point, I think it's more than just a way to make it look cool. Let's face it, this could be game play effecting easily.

1. Rumor is that a dropship can ONLY hold 1 thor. Another rumor is that it holds a thor beneath it, not taking up space inside allowing for a full dropship + 1 thor. A third rumor is that the thor takes up normal space on the dropship, but instead of visible.

Almost all rumors state 1 thing, a dropship can only hold 1 thor. This may be an artificial rumor, and part of why the "MEGADROPSHIP" in the singleplayer campaign is so awesome as it can hold 3 thors, not just 1.

2. I think it's VERY important that it actually shows what's in the dropship. This is a major disadvantage in some ways. Scenario 1: A dropship flies in, you have no clue until it drops it's load what to expect. There is room for error. Scenario 2: You see a dropship flying in with a thor underneath, you already prepare your "fade" spell of your high templar and wait for it to drop, completely negating much of the power.

This becomes more noticable if the theory that 1 thor per dropship is true. The alternative... an overlord flies to you with ultralisks in, you are still unaware how to react.

3. If (in my previous post) you can only attach massive units to the bottom of a medivac instead of a thor... this creates a sort of weakness for the medivac in comparison to the others. This is an ok equalizer in some ways, but in others it might not be.

Of course all this is my personal speculation, I hope the points are respectable to consider.

[DemolitionSquid]

As I said, I agree on all your points. The reasons I think the Thor should not have an animation are all as you said:

- knowing/not knowing what your opponent is dropping is important
- other races carrying the Thor
- animation lag
- size doesn't matter

[Nicol Bolas]

But the Thor requires a unique animation which by definition slows down its reaction time?

By what "definition" is this true? There is nothing that says that an animation has to change anything that has to do with gameplay. They could easily make the Thor just as functional during that half-second when the Thor dismounts the Medivac.

Furthermore, all Protoss units have a definite inactive period when being "beamed" down by a Warp Prism. We saw this in one of the SC2 videos, where someone went Colossus/Prism.

I loved Goliaths. They did one thing very well, and offered decent support after that role was done.

That was the problem. The "one thing" they did well was "kill all air units". That meant an entire dimension of gameplay is removed simply because pumping out a few of these is easy. They're cheap, massable, and kill all air units without any hope of air unit retaliation.

Just because a unit does one thing well doesn't mean that the one thing needs to be done.

I think having a Zerg Goliath in the Hydra could be quite beneficial.

If Hydralisks were like Goliaths, why would you ever, ever build Corruptors? Just march your HydraGols around and dominate all air, forcing your enemy to go to ground.

And don't forget: the Zerg are the fastest at changing the composition of their army. So if there's a sudden need for HydraGols, then they can get them easily enough.

I think if the Thor gets a special animation, the other races massive ground units should too.

The Colossus doesn't need one.

- knowing/not knowing what your opponent is dropping is important
- other races carrying the Thor
- animation lag
- size doesn't matter

Did you see how the Hellions/STs popped in and out of the Medivac in BR4? Did you see how awkward that was?

In SC1 it made some sense: the air unit was where it visually appeared to be. So if a unit popped out under it, it appeared under it. In SC2, this doesn't work. Thanks to the perspective viewpoint, "under" the air unit is not what is visually behind it. So it appears that ground units pop out of the Medivac.

The Warp Prism already has a special animation for loading/unloading any units. Who knows about the Overlord. But I personally would rather than there be some animation for loading and unloading all units. Again, it doesn't have to affect the gameplay. But it would make a lot more sense than now, where Hellions and Siege Tanks simply disappear.

[Norfindel]

Randomly interesting tidbits that I recall...

1. The Thor is actually carried by a Medivac the way everyone hoped for/suggested!
I think it's probably a tradeoff for been able to carry your Thors. You can do it now, but you're caught and it's pretty obvious where the Thors are.

2. Are we OK with the fact that Reapers are completely useless on certain maps/certain positions on certain maps?
I don't see any sense in a unit that is only useful for raiding, and nothing else. They could have a role in the battlefield, but be fairly weak vs some units, instead of dying in nanoseconds vs everything.
First Terran infantry problem: Marauder has too much range. They're better as tanks for weaker infantry, but they aren't the closer ones to the enemy most of the time. If Reapers could shoot from behind Marauders, they could survive. Reapers could use their jump packs to move over other units, also, and/or throw other kinds of grenades, like smoke grenades, or something.

3. Is the Hydras' complete dominance of air units what we want from the unit?
I think they should be as effective for cost as any other anti-air unit in his tier. It doesn't needs to be hyper-effective, as the Zerg have capable anti-air.

4. Is the Ghost just too damn good right now? Should the Nuke be scaled back to make more room for Siege Tanks?
For what we seen and readed, the Nukes seem to be too cheap. Nukes have a serious impact on the enemy, as he must stop what he's doing to check random areas. If the Nuke triggers a generic "under attack" message (and you can go to the spot by pressing spacebar), it's ok if it's cheap, and probably also have a shorter delay than in BW.

5. Are we OK with Ultralisks being generally very cost-effective at everything? That is, taking hits AND dishing them out? In SC1 they were only useful for the former.
Very cost effective vs everything? Well, not sure, it looks a bit cheap to have 600 hp and 20 dmg AoE attack.

[DemolitionSquid]

By what "definition" is this true? There is nothing that says that an animation has to change anything that has to do with gameplay. They could easily make the Thor just as functional during that half-second when the Thor dismounts the Medivac.

Furthermore, all Protoss units have a definite inactive period when being "beamed" down by a Warp Prism. We saw this in one of the SC2 videos, where someone went Colossus/Prism.

I just don't want to see the Thor speed-morph into a box and back as its being loaded/unloaded. It ruins my suspension of disbelief. Is that a crime or something?

That was the problem. The "one thing" they did well was "kill all air units". That meant an entire dimension of gameplay is removed simply because pumping out a few of these is easy. They're cheap, massable, and kill all air units without any hope of air unit retaliation.

Just because a unit does one thing well doesn't mean that the one thing needs to be done.

If Hydralisks were like Goliaths, why would you ever, ever build Corruptors? Just march your HydraGols around and dominate all air, forcing your enemy to go to ground.

And don't forget: the Zerg are the fastest at changing the composition of their army. So if there's a sudden need for HydraGols, then they can get them easily enough.

I never suggested them dominating air. Just that they needed to be better against armored and air than light and ground. Goliath in spirit, not in stats. Geez.

The Colossus doesn't need one.

Didn't you just try to establish it has one?

Did you see how the Hellions/STs popped in and out of the Medivac in BR4? Did you see how awkward that was?

In SC1 it made some sense: the air unit was where it visually appeared to be. So if a unit popped out under it, it appeared under it. In SC2, this doesn't work. Thanks to the perspective viewpoint, "under" the air unit is not what is visually behind it. So it appears that ground units pop out of the Medivac.

The Warp Prism already has a special animation for loading/unloading any units. Who knows about the Overlord. But I personally would rather than there be some animation for loading and unloading all units. Again, it doesn't have to affect the gameplay. But it would make a lot more sense than now, where Hellions and Siege Tanks simply disappear.

I'm saying all or nothing. Either every unit gets an animation, or none. Exactly for that reason - under is no longer under. Its my opinion, and is not required to be rational.

[Gifted]

Nicol Bolas: You willing to speak on the points I make above?