IgroMir 2009: imba.Adolf[RA] reports his SC2 opinions

[ArcherofAiur]

Wow, there's an awful lot of debate about the merits of having the Thor be carried underneath a transport. Personally I'm ok with this mechanic for two reasons:

1) Realism: You ain't fitting that monstrosity inside a dropship. It's nearly as big as a factory. Having it mechanically attached underneath is a more plausible approach.

Thats another thing. Anyone else notice how big the thor is coming out of the factory?

[Krikkitone]

Thats another thing. Anyone else notice how big the thor is coming out of the factory?

Actually that would be another cool use of that graphic... when the Thor first is built, have it appear in the 'folded' sate and rapidly unfold.

[Norfindel]

1. Is it a good idea for certain units to have no wait period before attacking? Right now I'm thinking specifically of Siege Tanks and Colossi, based on BR4 and imba.Adolf's impressions. Both can pop in and out of their respective shuttles without taking any hits. This seems like a pretty arbitrary and "cheap" way of adding micro to a unit. Is there a reason these two should have it above others? Is there something gained by all units not having the same wait period before attacking?

With the precedent of Reavers, it should be safe that there needs to be an additional delay from unload to the unit being able to shoot.

2. Do we like the Raven being as "self-sufficient" and versatile as it is now? It's become something of an alternative combat flyer... that is, it's good for the same combat situations you'd expect a standard all-purpose fighter to be, it just uses spells to do this instead of a straight-forward attack. Do we like that it's not relegated to the support role... and in fact, doesn't really *have* support type abilities?

The comment about Ravens being able to take out an expansion by themselves should be a clear sign than the Terran spells needs some more variation, instead of just dealing damage. It seems that 90% of the Terran spells are about dealing damage.

3. What should be done about the Immortals, if anything? Are they in trouble because the units they're meant to hard counter appear rarer than intended? Should they gain some more universal functions, or be returned to the Warp Gate, to compensate?

I have the idea that there are too many units with attacks very near 10, and that makes the Immortal a bad idea, as there will be countering units already there in numbers. It's too focused against heavy-hitters. A possible solution could be adding some "Shield armor", maybe even raise their Shields, so that fast-attack units aren't so affective against it, and lowering it's attack to compensate.

The problem with that, is that probably they have a heavy attack to be able to quickly counter Tanks and similar units, before they can damage stuff, but i think that buffing the Immortal "tanking" aspect while lowering it's attack could work. After all, if the Tanks are busy shooting the Immortals for more time, they're doing their job, even if their attacks aren't as effective. Other units will be able to reach the Tanks, and kill them, while the Immortals take the heat.

Immortal Shields should be difficult to take down by all kinds of units, as the Shields are their most important aspect.

[Nicol Bolas]

The comment about Ravens being able to take out an expansion by themselves should be a clear sign than the Terran spells needs some more variation, instead of just dealing damage. It seems that 90% of the Terran spells are about dealing damage.

That's the thing. Debuffs, by and large, just aren't worth the cost in a game like SC, where units have a high damage-to-Hp ratio and unit turnover is exceedingly high.

Take Lockdown. This is a single-target spell that renders a single mechanical unit useless. What are you going to use them on? Locking down a few Stalkers isn't worth the effort or energy, since there will be plenty more where they came from. Stasis is reasonable because one cast hits many units, so less effort is needed. Even in SC2 with smart-casting, Lockdown just isn't worth it.

Except of course, for those big-ticket mechanical units. Unfortunately, Lockdown then becomes so strong that it makes those units utterly useless. If your investment in 5 BCs can be nullified by 5 castings of a cheaper spell, then why bother?

If most debuffs are off the table as far as spellcasting is concerned, what's left? Damage. Or maybe something like Dark Swarm. But outside of oddball effects like that, it's damage.

I have the idea that there are too many units with attacks very near 10, and that makes the Immortal a bad idea, as there will be countering units already there in numbers.

As with everything, there is a perfect price for a unit. A unit with 100 shields, 200 health, and whatever the Immortal's damage is with its bonus vs. Armored, GtG only, etc, built at a Robo facility: this unit has a particular cost.

Thus, that is how much the Immortal should cost. It should be priced as though it did not have its Hardened shields. Thus, the hardened shields become a nice bonus, rather than "the reason I exist."

[areese87]

I actually think Immortals will be just fine as they are (or pretty close). While there are a limited number of units anti-ground with plus 10 (Seige Tank, DT, Stalker?, Collosus?, Archon, Thor?, Ultralisk, and maybe others), there's also Defensive structures. I see Immortals as great units for seiging, taking half the damage of Photon Cannons and some % of Spine Crawlers (how much do they do?). As for bunkers, how do they process damage? 6+6+6+6 pf 24?

[Pandonetho]

Yeap, bunkers are now awesome since they can be salvage (unless they removed that).

They also have that jumbo bunker upgrade, unless they removed that too. And I think they had 1 more, can't recall what it was, unless they also removed that one.

[Krikkitone]

That's the thing. Debuffs, by and large, just aren't worth the cost in a game like SC, where units have a high damage-to-Hp ratio and unit turnover is exceedingly high.

Take Lockdown. This is a single-target spell that renders a single mechanical unit useless. What are you going to use them on? Locking down a few Stalkers isn't worth the effort or energy, since there will be plenty more where they came from. Stasis is reasonable because one cast hits many units, so less effort is needed. Even in SC2 with smart-casting, Lockdown just isn't worth it.

Except of course, for those big-ticket mechanical units. Unfortunately, Lockdown then becomes so strong that it makes those units utterly useless. If your investment in 5 BCs can be nullified by 5 castings of a cheaper spell, then why bother?

If most debuffs are off the table as far as spellcasting is concerned, what's left? Damage. Or maybe something like Dark Swarm. But outside of oddball effects like that, it's damage.

The advantage of Dark Swarm is it is an AoE effect.

That is the type of Debuff that can work.... and some other Debuffs can work as well
AoE debuffs-> Time Bomb, Spore Cloud*, Vortex, Infestor's Ensnare*, EMP

Target Debuff->Neural Parasite, Phase Shift, AG, Targeting Drone

Buffs->Cloak, D.Matrix**, Warp

??->Point Defense, Forcefield, Hallucination

Damage Dealing->Psi Storm, Snipe, Yamato**, Plasma Torpedo**, 250 mm Gun**, Hunter Seeker, AutoTurret, Infested Marines, Fungal Infestation*, Disease*



* High uncertainty about their current state
** not an ability of a "Caster" unit, just single ability of a unit with energy

[Nicol Bolas]

Target Debuff->Neural Parasite, Phase Shift, AG, Targeting Drone

AG is not a debuff; it's primary effect is to make the unit flying so that the AtA Phoenixes can shoot them. It simply has the secondary effect of making the unit unable to act.

And I'm pretty sure the Targeting Drone isn't in the game anymore. People have talked about the Ravens abilities and it wasn't mentioned recently.

AoE debuffs-> Time Bomb, Spore Cloud*, Vortex, Infestor's Ensnare*, EMP

And yet, both Spore Cloud and the Infestor Ensnare-type ability were removed.

My point isn't whether these abilities exist; it's how useful they are. Ensare in SC1 was virtually never useful, despite these advantages:

1: It was on a relatively low-tier caster.

2: It was on a relatively cheap caster.

3: The building for that caster was needed to even get Tier 3 units.

Now, maybe Ensnare would be more useful in SC2, since Banelings don't require the micro that Lurkers do. Or maybe it wouldn't.

Devising a pure-support ability that remains useful is hard. In SC1, the only ones that saw any real use were Dark Swarm, Stasis, Recall, and EMP.

BTW, did anyone else notice that casters seem to only have 2 spells now (except the Ghost, who has Cloak and Nuke)? Maybe Blizzard's leaving room for the expansions to add a few new spells.

Fungal Infestation*, Disease*

These don't exist anymore.

[Krikkitone]

AG is not a debuff; it's primary effect is to make the unit flying so that the AtA Phoenixes can shoot them. It simply has the secondary effect of making the unit unable to act.

There is no reason it needs that secondary effect... at all

Essentially you have a mini lockdown

Also being able to be made a Target counts as a debuff to me.



As for Casters having only 2 spells....

Ghost has 3 (4 if you count Nuke... but its not a "spell" so)
High Templar has 2 (3 if you count Archon Warp..but same as above)
Disrupter has 2?
Mothership has 3 (warping ability)
Infester.... Totally unknown, last I heard it was 3 though
Overseer... similar to above although it was 2
Raven...3

so ones with 3=4
ones with 2 = 3 (2 of them are Protoss which has 3 casters while thoe others only have 2)



I'll redo the abilities looking at BW, since I don't think they will cut stuff from that

AoE Debuffs
Maelstrom, EMP, Ensnare, Stasis**, Disruptive web

AoE Buff
Darkswarm, Recall**

Target Debuff
Blind, Mind Control, Lockdown

Target Buff
Cloak, Defensive Matrix, Restore

Damage
Plague, Psi Storm, Irradiate*, Broodling**, Yamato

??
Parasite, Hallucinate


*partially acts as a debuff
**Unusual effects, so not a pure classification


Basically the issue with a Targeted Debuff is...

It will be either underpowered for low level targets, or overpowered for igh value targets... so you go with the first option.... you balance the ability around the high value target

[Nicol Bolas]

There is no reason it needs that secondary effect... at all

Essentially you have a mini lockdown

Emphasis on "mini." It doesn't work on anything that's worth holding without wanting to kill. Massive units can't be AG'd. The closest thing to a big-ticket item you might AG would be Siege Tanks. And even then, it's more about destroying them than holding them still.

Infester.... Totally unknown, last I heard it was 3 though

Only two were mentioned in the most recent info: Neural Parasite and Spawn Infested Marines.

Raven...3

I'm pretty sure only two were mentioned in the most recent info.

I'll redo the abilities looking at BW, since I don't think they will cut stuff from that

Yes. And what percentage of those buffs/debuffs are in general use? Half, at best.

Target Buff
Cloak, Defensive Matrix, Restore

You're grasping. Cloak is something you do to yourself. It's like Stim or Siege Mode.