IgroMir 2009: imba.Adolf[RA] reports his SC2 opinions

[pure.Wasted]

So what's your main point, Archer? We should ignore opinions because they're too subjective? Or...

[ArcherofAiur]

That just about everything in SC2 has people who think it needs to change.

[Shadow Archon]

That just about everything in SC2 has people who think it needs to change.

How about we wait for beta before saying things in SC2 need to be fixed?

[pure.Wasted]

Okay, how about we start actually dissecting the article itself? >: /


Randomly interesting tidbits that I recall...

1. The Thor is actually carried by a Medivac the way everyone hoped for/suggested!

2. Are we OK with the fact that Reapers are completely useless on certain maps/certain positions on certain maps?

3. Is the Hydras' complete dominance of air units what we want from the unit?

4. Is the Ghost just too damn good right now? Should the Nuke be scaled back to make more room for Siege Tanks?

5. Are we OK with Ultralisks being generally very cost-effective at everything? That is, taking hits AND dishing them out? In SC1 they were only useful for the former.

[DemolitionSquid]

1. The Thor is actually carried by a Medivac the way everyone hoped for/suggested!

I hate this idea. Size is meaningless in SC. If the Thor gets a special carry animation, the Ultra needs one too. Both or neither.

2. Are we OK with the fact that Reapers are completely useless on certain maps/certain positions on certain maps?

I think Reapers are only "useless" on flat Terrain because they have a bonus to light, and are thus outclassed by the cheaper, heartier, AoE Hellion. They need to be glass cannons and excel at one thing: raiding.

Personally, I'd take one of two paths:

1. Change their 8 damage and +8 to light and instead make it either:
- 12 +4 vs light
- 12 vs all

2. Give them a bonus against buildings instead. Of course that would interfere with their mines a bit.

3. Is the Hydras' complete dominance of air units what we want from the unit?

I like its AA position. Hydras should not be massed as they were in SC1. I think having Hydras act like Goliaths could be a good thing.

4. Is the Ghost just too damn good right now? Should the Nuke be scaled back to make more room for Siege Tanks?

Its refreshing seeing the tank in a real support role instead of base-line unit. Its been less replaced by the Ghost as by the goddamn Thor. I hate that thing.

I'll go back to what I said years ago: I'd have no problem or reservation with scrapping the Tank and splitting it into two units - an offensive unit like the Thor, and a defensive siege building like an upgrade to the Bunker.

Seeing as that will never happen, however, I think the ST is otherwise fine.

The problem is not with the Nuke, it is definitely with the Ghost.

Snipe and EMP need to be combined into one spell, seeing as the enemies you'll mostly be sniping at will be psionic-based, and EMP is only really useful on Protoss.

The Ghost should be expensive but fragile. They're just too versatile to be massable.

5. Are we OK with Ultralisks being generally very cost-effective at everything? That is, taking hits AND dishing them out? In SC1 they were only useful for the former.

I'll just say this: Roaches need to tank. Ultras need to pillage.

[pure.Wasted]

I hate this idea. Size is meaningless in SC. If the Thor gets a special carry animation, the Ultra needs one too. Both or neither.

Where is the opportunity to give an Ultra a special carry animation? They travel by Nydus Networks, underneath the ground. I don't see a place where an animation might be inserted.

I don't agree with the idea that 'size is meaningless' as a rule. It's meaningless in most cases because we don't know the exact relationship between unit sizes. In this case, Blizz decided to be quite up-front: this is how big a Thor is in relation to a Dropship, and how the ferrying process works. I see nothing wrong with it.

I think Reapers are only "useless" on flat Terrain because they have a bonus to light, and are thus outclassed by the cheaper, heartier, AoE Hellion. They need to be glass cannons and excel at one thing: raiding.

But if they excel at raiding, won't that make Hellions' raiding superfluous? Right now there is obviously some overlap between the two units, and it's also pretty obvious that Reapers are the ones on the losing end of the connection.

One of your suggestions is to make them receive +damage vs. buildings... but this doesn't really address the issue of them being useless on non-high-grounded terrain. I mean, they're already good at taking out buildings -- as good as Blizz wants them to be, anyway, since 8 mines only half-killing a Pool can't be anything but a conscious, intentional decision -- so this wouldn't *change* anything in imba.Adolf's example.

I'm just not sure it's acceptable for a unit to have next to no value in combat, in ANY situation. And, again, push them into raiding hard enough and Hellions start to look redundant.

I like its AA position. Hydras should not be massed as they were in SC1. I think having Hydras act like Goliaths could be a good thing.

Didn't we not like Goliaths, though? I mean, they were necessary to deal with certain threats because that's the way the game was designed, but... didn't we not like the way they made air vs. T largely unuseable?

BTW it sounds like Hydras ARE as massable as they were in SC1... combined with complete dominance of air units.

[Nicol Bolas]

Where is the opportunity to give an Ultra a special carry animation?

As far as I know, Overlord transport is still in the game. It was specifically stated to be back post BlizzCon08, and nobody ever said it was removed.

But if they excel at raiding, won't that make Hellions' raiding superfluous?

I'm not really sure why Hellions should be raiding to begin with. Oh sure, you can get a Medivac of them and go to town. But Hellions should be best suited towards dealing with a particular kind of enemy: blobs of fast, light units. They have the AoE to punish this kind of enemy, and they have the speed to kite/pursue them.

[DemolitionSquid]

Where is the opportunity to give an Ultra a special carry animation? They travel by Nydus Networks, underneath the ground. I don't see a place where an animation might be inserted.

I don't agree with the idea that 'size is meaningless' as a rule. It's meaningless in most cases because we don't know the exact relationship between unit sizes. In this case, Blizz decided to be quite up-front: this is how big a Thor is in relation to a Dropship, and how the ferrying process works. I see nothing wrong with it.

Overlords still have transport, FYI.

I just find it stupid. The Colossus can be loaded/unloaded in a split second. So can the Ultra. So can every other unit. But the Thor requires a unique animation which by definition slows down its reaction time? I don't buy it.

But if they excel at raiding, won't that make Hellions' raiding superfluous? Right now there is obviously some overlap between the two units, and it's also pretty obvious that Reapers are the ones on the losing end of the connection.

One of your suggestions is to make them receive +damage vs. buildings... but this doesn't really address the issue of them being useless on non-high-grounded terrain. I mean, they're already good at taking out buildings -- as good as Blizz wants them to be, anyway, since 8 mines only half-killing a Pool can't be anything but a conscious, intentional decision -- so this wouldn't *change* anything in imba.Adolf's example.

I'm just not sure it's acceptable for a unit to have next to no value in combat, in ANY situation. And, again, push them into raiding hard enough and Hellions start to look redundant.

Hellions aren't raiders. They are anti-light. It just so happens that workers are considered light, but Hellions were not designed to raid. Just like Vultures or Firebats weren't designed to raid.

This is why I say if I had to pull any two Terran units from WoL, they'd be the Reaper and Banshee. They are glass cannons who need to get too close to their targets. They have easily exploitable weaknesses. They overlap with too many other things. If the Reaper wants to be useful, it needs to be the absolute best choice for what it does, but fail at everything else to make people think twice about building them instead of something a bit more versatile - like the Hellion.

Didn't we not like Goliaths, though? I mean, they were necessary to deal with certain threats because that's the way the game was designed, but... didn't we not like the way they made air vs. T largely unuseable?

BTW it sounds like Hydras ARE as massable as they were in SC1... combined with complete dominance of air units.

I loved Goliaths. They did one thing very well, and offered decent support after that role was done. But to build an army of them was suicide as they fell to very simple things. Its kind of the same with the Phoenix now. While I think it could use a better ability, it is effective at killing air and Graviton Beam makes it useful even after it has nothing left to kill normally.

I think having a Zerg Goliath in the Hydra could be quite beneficial. Thers nothing wrong with a little rock- paper-scissors (Roach-Hydra-Zergling).

[Gifted]

A few points to consider:

1. If a person has access to two races in control and an overlord picks up a Thor, what happens? If a Medivac picks up an Ultralisk.. what happens? I can see some merit in DemoSquids thoughts... but we should explore the speculation of it first. What if the Medivac picked up MASSIVE units in the same fashion? If we don't know exactly what happens, what do you feel is a thing that "should" happen, even if it doesn't happen right now. Something to consider

2. I personally don't know my opinion on the hellion right now. If it has wheels, it has wheels, if it doesn't have wheels, likewise understanding. What seems unnatural is it's ability to "warp turn" in it's animation. While I understand the importance of making a unit face it's target in terms of game design/understandiblity. I don't like the "flow" of the stop/go animation that they do right now when micro'd. It almost looks spazmatic. The issue is, changing this is a gameplay change. I think this was what he was referring to in Day 1 about the awkward movement/attack style.

3. The use of Hellions will not shine until well after the game is out. Remember, Vulture's were never meant to tank damage, but they act as a shield for the tanks in many games. For this reason, I think the role of the hellion will be decided moreso by the activities that people perform with it instead of the intention that it stands for on paper. I would believe that many people in this thread are on the same understanding there.

4. Overlord transit is in the current build

5. Reapers have an odd use I can think of in late game. If you take 3 reapers in a medivac, fly them into a base (or run in if the map allows it) and just toss 3 D3 charges and run away without firing a single shot.. the enemy could have some MASSIVE harrassment without ANY sort of warning, in the same way that a psi storm drop is performed. Consider that...

[DemolitionSquid]

A few points to consider:

1. If a person has access to two races in control and an overlord picks up a Thor, what happens? If a Medivac picks up an Ultralisk.. what happens? I can see some merit in DemoSquids thoughts... but we should explore the speculation of it first. What if the Medivac picked up MASSIVE units in the same fashion? Something to consider

Its like j00 can read my mindz!