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Thread: Umoja and Kel Morian Combine

  1. #21

    Default Re: Umoja and Kel Morian Combine

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Blade View Post
    Moreover, the Zerg are not the evolutionary threat at the same height as any of the other hive civilizations in sci-fi. Hell, that's a worse burden at a storytelling level than writing a big brain sentient being. Only the Halo series did a decent job narrating that overshoot of a concept. The fact that the Zerg "decolonize" a planet after the hive mind leaves is far a better narrative concept for an organic space faring civilization.
    Hm, not sure whether you mean these differences with the Zerg are considered limitations or improvements compared to the standard 'horde of alien locusts" trope.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Blade View Post
    Instead of having the Terran and Protoss factions align against a common enemy we have a division within the Zerg force, ilmao. The Dominion was a unified front, but they get sabotaged by the UED for no better reason than to exmachina a Zerg Overmind. Later, the dominion is demoted to mustache twirling villain, while it always had the potential of establishing a morality duel for the player.
    Well, you have to consider that the Zerg were conceivably shattered and divided by the end of Sc1, so there'd be no need to team up. Also, the Dominion could have also easily filled in the role as main antagonist (that the UED ultimately did) after Sc1, if there really had to be an overarching antagonist for a sequel/expansion. Problem with that was that there's this impression that the Terrans were crippled by the end of Sc1 as well (more than 2/3 of their core worlds were laid to waste), so in a way, the UED was kind of a necessary conceit/plot device to put the Terrans in general back on the table of relevancy.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Blade View Post
    The real question to burn down any space opera is, "What if I strap a nuke and a teleporter together and repeat this process thousands of times?"; which to an extent was, as a variation, the same question that created so much chaos among the Star Wars fandom after The Last Jedi.
    Indeed. Teleporters in themselves make for very effective weapons, too, when you think about it (no need to put them back together again, right?).

    The sci-fi (which is admittedly light considering other sci-fi universes) in the Dune universe is interesting in that there's distinct workarounds/explanations for why certain things are the way they are. Lack of firearms due to the effectiveness of shields (hence slow dart guns and melee weapon skill being important) and that the only method around them is assured mutual destruction (lasers striking shields create atomic explosions). No space battles are present because the only means of space travel/transport is determined by the Spacing Guild. And so on. (Man, I'm cautiously optimistic about the upcoming film...).


    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    "Ongoing" is a relative term. I do expect that the conflict would end at some point. I'm not trying to copy 40k's ten millennia of war. I intend the timeline between the start of the wars and humanity's potential extinction be planned out in advance, rather than being dragged out for indefinite periods of in-universe time. I don't want the wars to last more than a couple decades total before ending.
    Fair enough. I think my point still stands though that the Terrans need to beefier/stronger/hardier from the get-go in order for any sort of "ongoing" thing to take place. It's interesting to note that you do intend to end it with the Terrans ultimate demise, since that would suggest a greater need to make the Terrans stronger up-front initially/ shed the weak and isolated premise they were originally conceived as.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    I love Farscape! This was also on my mind when I mentioned the Overmind's capability of generating wormholes earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    This thread is about dissatisfaction that UP and KMC weren't used, right? I feel the same way about the Confederacy, Overmind/cerebrates, and Protoss Empire.
    Well, one can still dream, right? That's were all the best fluff is, afterall.
    Last edited by Turalyon; 04-28-2020 at 01:00 AM.
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  2. #22
    The_Blade's Avatar Administrator
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    Default Re: Umoja and Kel Morian Combine

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Hm, not sure whether you mean these differences with the Zerg are considered limitations or improvements compared to the standard 'horde of alien locusts" trope.
    What I was trying to say is that flaws create a better villain or in this case a ravenous swarm of killer aliens. One of the frequent components of the "horde of alien locusts" trope is an unstoppable plague, which is often the reason these creatures are the clear antagonist. So, both? By improving on the limitations of the Zerg as a species and giving them real setbacks you improve their potential when writing plot around them.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Umoja and Kel Morian Combine

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Well, they already had that kind of thing in the Sons of Korhal...
    I'm probably not conveying my point well. I don't mean revolutionaries as in SC revolutionaries, more like hippie-types from the 60s who would openly support the Soviet Union despite the fact they know next to nothing about the USSR, they just hate America so much they want to sympathize with anyone who is against America, no matter how bad that antagonist is.

    Yeah, but if we're from the position that the first contact with the Protoss was with them dealing death on Chau Sara unannounced (rather than just saying hello instead for example), there is no way in heck the UP would ever think they have benevolent tendencies.
    *shrugs* Well, we're never told when exactly the UP develops their opinion of Protoss. It may have been significantly after Chau Sara. Not to mention that Raynor pal-ed up with them, so it's entirely possible and likely that information from Raynor's associates made its way to other humans. Since the Confederacy, Dominion, and possibly the KMC all depend on keeping information away from their citizens, it's more likely Umoja would know more about the Protoss than other worlds.

    And, well...think about SC fans. A lot of us like Protoss, despite knowing how destructive they can be. While liking a fictitious race is not the same as liking a real one, the fact is, I think some people would like Protoss simply for being better than us technologically/culturally (opinion on the latter) and desire to clear up the "misunderstanding" between the races. Not that that would necessarily be a large number of people.



    I dunno about this. I don't think the Terrans "have" to make peace with the Protoss. I like the prospect of the Terrans generally just being forevermore belligerent due to and in response to the Protoss' burning of Chau Sara, since it's a very human flaw to hold grudges/see opposition everywhere and to rail against it (a pertinent line from Duke: "I'm going to have to assume that was a hostile response" just sprang into mind as I wrote this). That's not to say that there are some human faction that do want peace with the Protoss (like the UP) but given how the Terrans are depicted and our general history (both in real life and the the fictional version), Terrans being the ones to maintain antagonistic relations in general feels like a more honest depiction.
    While technically you're somewhat right, alas, the Zerg. That, and given the power difference between the humans and Protoss, we will have to accept peace, even if it's a grudging peace in the end. Similar to how we today don't like China's government, but we don't outright say we want to fight them because a war would be pretty devastating all around. Disliking someone and wanting to fight a war against them is two different things.
    "Seeing Fenix once more perplexes me. I feel sadness, when I should feel joy."
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  4. #24

    Default Re: Umoja and Kel Morian Combine

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Blade View Post
    What I was trying to say is that flaws create a better villain or in this case a ravenous swarm of killer aliens. One of the frequent components of the "horde of alien locusts" trope is an unstoppable plague, which is often the reason these creatures are the clear antagonist. So, both? By improving on the limitations of the Zerg as a species and giving them real setbacks you improve their potential when writing plot around them.
    The zerg already had that to some degree by adding personalities to the standard borg/tyranid template.

    Unhappy Anchovy at spacebattles analyzes them in detail:
    https://forums.spacebattles.com/thre.../post-43335190
    https://forums.spacebattles.com/thre...#post-12981005
    https://forums.spacebattles.com/thre...#post-21579864
    https://forums.spacebattles.com/thre...2#post-9374119

    Aside from that, you could posit that the terrans have develop anti-zerg weapons like neurotoxins and psychic warfare.

    For example, to recycle a plot point from StarFront, you could have the terrans douse a hive cluster with an engineered toxin that causes the altered zerg to split from the Overmind.

    Another example, the Fenris brood bio implies that “escaped breeders” break from the hive mind spontaneously for whatever reason.

    Basically, you can pull limitations out of your ass and make it sound plausible with technobabble.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Umoja and Kel Morian Combine

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Fair enough. I think my point still stands though that the Terrans need to beefier/stronger/hardier from the get-go in order for any sort of "ongoing" thing to take place. It's interesting to note that you do intend to end it with the Terrans ultimate demise, since that would suggest a greater need to make the Terrans stronger up-front initially/ shed the weak and isolated premise they were originally conceived as.
    The ending is multiple choice. If you play as Race X, then Race X wins. (See Atrox for an example of this.) So there’s basically three timelines depending on which side you prefer, in which that side is favored by the narrative. Although I prefer to write my campaigns as self-contained narratives, so I guess this is largely academic.

    And yes, the terrans would be bigger/stronger by virtue of the fact that I don’t need to focus on a lost colony. I can focus on the entire human race across their territory in the milky way.

    That doesn’t mean their advantage is due to numerical superiority. I prefer if they had technological advantages to provide a thematic distinction against the subversive swarming tactics of the bugs.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Umoja and Kel Morian Combine

    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    I'm probably not conveying my point well. I don't mean revolutionaries as in SC revolutionaries, more like hippie-types from the 60s who would openly support the Soviet Union despite the fact they know next to nothing about the USSR, they just hate America so much they want to sympathize with anyone who is against America, no matter how bad that antagonist is.
    The is reminiscent of the Tau aligned human defectors/traitors of the Imperium of Man (the "Gue'vasa) in WH40k, I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    *shrugs* Well, we're never told when exactly the UP develops their opinion of Protoss. It may have been significantly after Chau Sara.
    I'm kinda of the opinion that the manual was a sort of omniscient view of things before the events of the Sc1 game, but eh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    A lot of us like Protoss, despite knowing how destructive they can be. While liking a fictitious race is not the same as liking a real one, the fact is, I think some people would like Protoss simply for being better than us technologically/culturally (opinion on the latter) and desire to clear up the "misunderstanding" between the races. Not that that would necessarily be a large number of people.
    Protoss are my least favourite of the 3 races partly because of this latent and supposed superiority. They're kinda like elves/space elves and all the baggage that usually comes with that trope. I don't hate them/that trope per se, it's more that I like disliking them because of this trait if that makes sense. That and space elves are often limited by the scope of the writer in that they're often depicted as less alien than one would expect and/or reduced down to essentially becoming proxy humans anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    While technically you're somewhat right, alas, the Zerg. That, and given the power difference between the humans and Protoss, we will have to accept peace, even if it's a grudging peace in the end.
    But the Terrans don't know whether the Protoss would even offer or want peace. It's also not within their power to affect what the Protoss do next. Were it not for Tassadar's late pang of conscience (let's not forget that he still ordered and affected the death of many humans even if he did feel wrong about it and changed his actions later on), the Protoss in general wouldn't have cared enough for the Terrans to consider peace since the Protoss would've thought they're doing the Terrans a favour by putting them out of their misery and the galaxy at large a favour by slowing down the Zerg advance. Even if the truth of the attack on their colonies was revealed to the Terrans, it would still breed animosity between Terrans and Protoss because the core idea of burning of Terran worlds was an intentioned act - not a mistaken or a careless one.

    Unlike the determinant plot device as way to instigate TvZ, the intentioned burning of Terran worlds to instigate TvP is not conditional and a more effective in maintaining a protracted feud between the two parties because it can work both ways. The determinant being a weaker plot device since it invites and encourages artifice in order to prolong why Zerg would want to fight the Terrans - like the Zerg not being able to get their determinant since otherwise they'd just ignore them to focus on the Protoss instead.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    That doesn’t mean their advantage is due to numerical superiority. I prefer if they had technological advantages to provide a thematic distinction against the subversive swarming tactics of the bugs.
    Given that Protoss are even more technologically proficient than the Terrans, how do you stop them from being overpowered without having to resort to internal strife/fighting themselves or just plain gimping them down or pulling out the "oh, we just don't want to use our full power" excuse to equalise them? There's probably more danger here for artifice since the Protoss are supposedly "better" than the Terrans in most ways and are the ultimate focus/goal for the Zerg to overcome.
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  7. #27

    Default Re: Umoja and Kel Morian Combine

    But the Terrans don't know whether the Protoss would even offer or want peace. It's also not within their power to affect what the Protoss do next. Were it not for Tassadar's late pang of conscience (let's not forget that he still ordered and affected the death of many humans even if he did feel wrong about it and changed his actions later on), the Protoss in general wouldn't have cared enough for the Terrans to consider peace since the Protoss would've thought they're doing the Terrans a favour by putting them out of their misery and the galaxy at large a favour by slowing down the Zerg advance. Even if the truth of the attack on their colonies was revealed to the Terrans, it would still breed animosity between Terrans and Protoss because the core idea of burning of Terran worlds was an intentioned act - not a mistaken or a careless one.

    Unlike the determinant plot device as way to instigate TvZ, the intentioned burning of Terran worlds to instigate TvP is not conditional and a more effective in maintaining a protracted feud between the two parties because it can work both ways. The determinant being a weaker plot device since it invites and encourages artifice in order to prolong why Zerg would want to fight the Terrans - like the Zerg not being able to get their determinant since otherwise they'd just ignore them to focus on the Protoss instead.
    Not real sure about this. The 'Toss have culturally protected Terrans prior to Chau Sara, and from the standpoint of the Dae'Uhl would not eliminate humans without motive (ie the Zerg provocation). From a moral standpoint the Aiur Protoss would not eliminate humans. Likewise, DTs have no motive. On top of that, Raynor has bridged a lot of gaps on the Protoss side of things. On top of that, you have the loss of Aiur and accompanying loss of life and the Protoss having to recover from that. The Protoss are not killing machines.

    Likewise, the humans are dealing with political upheaval from Mengsk's reign and the fact that his animosity with Kerrigan pretty much directed most of the wrath of the Zerg his way. With KMC mostly on the sidelines, they're looking to survive and prosper without being controlled by the Confederacy/Mengsk. While absolutely human hatred for the Protoss would not instantly go away, reality is what it is, and the destruction of the UED was a pretty good example of what the Zerg are capable of. Mengsk would have it in his head only to go after Kerrigan, and I refuse to believe that a pragmatic man like him would allow being distracted by the Protoss to get in the way, particularly when he worked with the Protoss in the battle of the three fleets. BW was the story of everyone finally figuring out that it's the Zerg who are the main trouble in the Sector. Absent of some human leader rising up to fight the Protoss with those like minded, it's not going to happen.
    "Seeing Fenix once more perplexes me. I feel sadness, when I should feel joy."
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  8. #28

    Default Re: Umoja and Kel Morian Combine

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Given that Protoss are even more technologically proficient than the Terrans, how do you stop them from being overpowered without having to resort to internal strife/fighting themselves or just plain gimping them down or pulling out the "oh, we just don't want to use our full power" excuse to equalise them? There's probably more danger here for artifice since the Protoss are supposedly "better" than the Terrans in most ways and are the ultimate focus/goal for the Zerg to overcome.
    Well, the foundation of their in-game tactics is that they field fewer units than the earthlings but their units are individually superior. Unless I want the lore to be utterly divorced from the gameplay, then I have to reflect that by ascribing them superior technology.

    Obviously they'd win in their racial ending by exterminating the bugs and annexing the earthlings as a client state. I can't think of many reasons for why they lose in the other two endings beyond the simple fact that the other two endings require them to lose. We could contrive a combination of internal strife, psychological hangups (e.g. incompetence, insanity, arrogance, apathy, ethics, etc), budget constraints, bureaucratic red tape, having other more advanced threats to worry about offscreen, etc, but that's ultimately a thermian argument.

    I think you're being needlessly uncharitable to fiction. Real history is full of events that don't make sense. I don't find it hard to believe that the stars aligned such that the highly advanced aliens have failed to subdue the less advanced humans. In real life, humans don't take existential threats seriously unless they have immediate effects, which is why climate change is on course to render the planet uninhabitable. It is entirely reasonable to assume the aliens have their own psychological hangups that prevent them from responding to the most minor of perceived threats with perfect efficiency.

    You have to remember that, at least as far as I can parse from the incoherent nonsense that is canon, Tassadar's fleet was a repurposed exploratory fleet rather than a dedicated warfleet, was investigating the border of the empire far away from anywhere important, and the Protoss Empire was already dealing with numerous other diplomatic issues and xenomorphic threats at the same time (that's what you get for claiming an entire eighth of the galaxy and all the many billions of stars therein). It is entirely possible that the fleet just wasn't prepared for a full-scale invasion, their superiors didn't consider the conflict important enough to divert resources from other theaters, and any reinforcements would have taken too long to make a difference in the initial battles (by which time the zerg and terrans could have developed suitable countermeasures, like psychic/electronic warfare, the Umojans allying with dark templar, Ulrezaj enhancing the zerg with protoss science, etc).

    My personal favorite explanation is taken from AT-43's Therians: posthumans who casually build Dyson spheres are too busy playing Universim to bother waging war competently against meatbags.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Umoja and Kel Morian Combine

    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    Not real sure about this. The 'Toss have culturally protected Terrans prior to Chau Sara, and from the standpoint of the Dae'Uhl would not eliminate humans without motive (ie the Zerg provocation). From a moral standpoint the Aiur Protoss would not eliminate humans..
    I never disputed this nor said the Protoss are antagonistic. I dispute the fact that Terrans and Protoss would ever reach amicable grounds. The Protoss don't give a shit about the Terrans and the Terrans will always hold resentment against the Protoss for their attack. In such a scenario, any future TvP encounter would likely have the Terrans be the aggressor in most cases with the Protoss justifying any action against the Terrans as "defending" themselves from hostile lesser beings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    Likewise, the humans are dealing with political upheaval from Mengsk's reign and the fact that his animosity with Kerrigan pretty much directed most of the wrath of the Zerg his way. With KMC mostly on the sidelines, they're looking to survive and prosper without being controlled by the Confederacy/Mengsk. While absolutely human hatred for the Protoss would not instantly go away, reality is what it is, and the destruction of the UED was a pretty good example of what the Zerg are capable of. Mengsk would have it in his head only to go after Kerrigan, and I refuse to believe that a pragmatic man like him would allow being distracted by the Protoss to get in the way, particularly when he worked with the Protoss in the battle of the three fleets. BW was the story of everyone finally figuring out that it's the Zerg who are the main trouble in the Sector. Absent of some human leader rising up to fight the Protoss with those like minded, it's not going to happen.
    Please remember that my position is limited to what we know from the manual up to and before the events of Sc1's game story in order to explain why TvP would be justified over the long term. I'm not saying it can't change but even so, the changes would only be at a micro level (individual groups/people like Tass' force and Raynor's crew). There was a realisation that the Zerg were the main enemy and a need to team-up in SC1 what with the last mission having Raynor involved, but you have to keep in mind that Raynor and Tassadar were sort of outliers of the people they represented. The larger institutions of their respective races (ie: Terran Dominion and Khalai Protoss society) would've still harboured distrust of each other.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    I think you're being needlessly uncharitable to fiction.
    I laughed hard at this. Pot kettle black anyone? All I'm doing is putting it up to scrutiny - similar to what you claim to be doing when "criticising" Sc1.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Real history is full of events that don't make sense. I don't find it hard to believe that the stars aligned such that the highly advanced aliens have failed to subdue the less advanced humans.
    And yet the idea of fictional characters being focused on too much or doing significant things doesn't make sense to you either... Besides, the differential between Protoss and Terran power levels are huge, even if we're not counting the possibility that the Protoss actually outnumber the Terrans too by all accounts what with their supposed galactic reach/spread, use of war machines to limit loss of life and having been around far longer. The factions in 40K are more balanced/equal in power levels and there's more of them compared to Sc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    It is entirely reasonable to assume the aliens have their own psychological hangups that prevent them from responding to the most minor of perceived threats with perfect efficiency.
    It is also entirely reasonable to assume alien don't have psychological hang-ups because you know, aliens! Fictional "aliens" only have psychological hangups because they're written by humans who want to make things relatable.
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  10. #30
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    Default Re: Umoja and Kel Morian Combine

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    I laughed hard at this. Pot kettle black anyone?
    lol

    Anyways, I feel like I can agree with both Tura and Nissa with different reference points of view in mind. I feel like Nissa is going through with a more faction directed approach. Despite of the catastrophe there's a difference in faction identity between the UP and the Sara System. Add to that the possibility of information bias throughout the Koprulu sector or at least information lag. I can totally see the UP trying to hail the Protoss fleets. The DTs were also around, trying to snipe the Zerg cerebrates, there's another possibility of contact there. However, if I understand correctly Tura argues that at a racial level the Protoss have a omnicient perspective of the Terrans and their factions, if they care to study them. Said awareness is what allows them to react quickly upon the Zerg infestations and make the best decision to save the greater amount of Terrans. That being said, I don't the Terrans would ever understand the measured actions of the Protoss and would therefore not forgive such actions. That said, I agree the most with Nissa that at least the UP can eventually make peace with the Protoss forces as they did with the status quo of the Dominion despite their ideology differences.

    I thought of a new question too. Would the UP be able to understand the fall of Tarsonis as it happened or as Mengsk narrated it?

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