I am going to Blizzcon

[Mislagnissa]

What happened to that? Um, it exists in its own thread. There. The trouble is, you continually pursue the topic in every other single thread, changing whatever the topic was to what you want for Starcraft. We can't talk about anything else, because if we do, you come in and start talking about your thing, accusing us of loving Kerrigan and Raynor too much. The truth is we're not necessarily obsessed with those characters, we just don't demonize them the way you do, and you act as if this is some capital offense.

And using depression as a shield for criticism is below the belt.

Fair enough. I'm acting like a jerk and I have no one but myself to blame.

Hmmm. I'm not sure that you even noticed that you contradicted yourself. It's that or you need to provide more contextualisation, like in your use of the word "better". "Better" to whom? By the way you present yourself here, it seems it's only better to you.

@sandwich_bird already pointed out general problems with the way that the Starcraft script was written. Pacing issues, presentation of characters and plot points, the disjointed structure of the narrative, etc. The sort of things I expect that you guys could generally agree on are actual flaws in the execution.

The criticisms I bring to the table are based on a deep-level analysis of both the text and the way that the writer conceived it in the first place.

From a metatextual analysis it's obvious that Metzen had no idea what he was doing. As @sandwich_bird put it so succinctly, it's a mess of random cool ideas. Considering the difference in writing style and metatextual assumptions, he most likely didn't write the manual either because it feels much more cohesive than the actual game (even as vaguely sketched out as it is) and the game doesn't feel like an organic exploration of its setup (regardless of any rationalizations you guys try to come up whenever I bring this up).

SC1 is clearly two different main plot threads crudely glued together. Episode 1 is its own plot thread about terran rebellion. Episodes 2 and 3 are their own plot thread about zerg/protoss war. It's pretty obvious that Metzen cared most about the first plot and put far less work into the second. The overarching story isn't cohesive and the two plots never come together in an organic fashion.

Not only that, but the campaigns rely on plot devices that come across as lazy and blatantly amateurish. Rather than the characters devising novel solutions to their problems using their own ingenuity, they just pick up a convenient plot device that magically solves their problems for them. This is especially evident with the atrocious psi-emitter plot in Episode 1, in which the zerg kill the Confederate leaders and then conveniently leave so that Mengsk can take control without further problems. While this leaves the terrans devastated and on the brink of extinction, Mengsk doesn't actually care about this high cost... and neither did Blizzard, since the ramifications of this are ignored in every future installment which depicts the Dominion having whatever resources the plot requires. (Although this requires you to acknowledge that BW has tons of plot holes, rather than trying to rationalize them all as making perfect sense as often happens whenever I bring this up. So I won't go down that rabbit hole again here.)

The depiction of Kerry/QoB and Tassadar as messiahs who single-handedly solve the problems afflicting their respective sides is... well, it's lazy. It's blatant heroic/epic/whatever fantasy shoehorned into what was previously shown in Ep1 to be a more conventional military scifi setting, and not even GOOD epic/heroic fantasy. What separates good epic/heroic fantasy from all the chaff is things like character development, good plotting, a sense of progression, consequences, yadda yadda and these are just general guidelines for good writing in general. Metzen is not a good writer here, or at least he cared far less than he did while writing the at least passable Episode 1.

But I digress.

Why/who would anyone talk about Starcraft in a writing forum as if it was an exemplar literary work in the first place? O.o

Nobody did. I was trying to drum in interest in taking the manual's outline of a setting and exploring with the same seriousness and depth as military scifi literature. The problem is that pretty much nobody cared. Either they had zero interest in Starcraft to begin with because of its atrocious writing, or they literally couldn't think of Starcraft as having any existence beyond Kerry's melodrama.

The only people who think any Starcraft game story is exemplary are the Starcraft fanboys who drove me to despise this fandom in the first place.

The frustrating aspect of the anemic Starcraft fandom is that its fanboys, compared to other much healthier fandoms like Avatar: The Last Airbender, Voltron: Legendary Defender, She-Ra and the Princesses of Power, etc is that the fanboys generally treat the canon like a gospel. They refuse to deviate from it, take criticism as personal attacks, etc. Something about Starcraft's basic presentation doesn't attract creative people to its fandom. That's the entire reason I cynically decided to depict the iconic space marines of my rip-off as freaking catboys. That's a genuinely better way to attract creatives interested in writing dark and gritty military scifi, as the Voltron fanfiction on AO3 clearly shows. I have no idea why it works, it just does.

I don't really care if Blizz explores it, now or even back then (I didn't care much for a sequel and ended up being vindicated afterall). I was happy enough with Sc1 being interesting enough and sparking my imagination. I'm happy to be done with it (even way back then) but that doesn't mean we can't still talk about it even now, as some on here are wont to do. That is why this forum exists (or existed as the case may turn out to be).

I can agree with that. All the most interesting Starcraft fanfics were written in the long past days before Starcraft 2 was a thing, when fans were more creative and open to exploring the setting beyond the tiny canon cast. Nowadays every fanfic is "Kerry this, Hybrid that, East Bridge whatever." It's stagnant and boring.

Nah mate, people on here are fully aware that they're indulging in fanwank territory. Not all have illusions of wanting it to come into fruition nor saying their vision is better. We're just sharing what interests us and having fun at the same time.

What frustrates me is that I want to enjoy it with you, but my brain won't let me.

I can't take the plot of SC1 seriously due to its presentation and writing. I don't think it makes any sense and I can't enjoy it without changing it to make sense. I'm OCD like that. (Although judging by the popular youtube channels dedicated to criticizing fiction, I'm probably not OCD and just picked the wrong fandom.)

I never understood the post-BW illusions you guys conjured because, as far as I ever thought, there's no way to really continue the story satisfactorily after BW. The terrans and protoss are on the brink of extinction, Earth won't be able to send help in time since I'm guessing they had a good reason for allocating such a tiny budget to the expedition despite sending it specifically because they feared being exterminated by aliens, and the only forces that still stand a chance are QoB's swarms and Duran's hybrids. Basically, BW2 would probably consist of everyone in Koprulu dying horribly as either QoB or Duran comes on top, and then BW3 would depict UED fighting the victor to death if they aren't already involved in BW2.

I was never invested in QoB and Duran. I don't find them interesting, I find them lazy. They're vastly inferior replacements for the Overmind that Metzen pulled out of his butt because he needed a new villain.

I don't remember the general outcomes you guys discussed in the past when this forum was more active. IIRC, @Nissa's suggestion for BW2 is that QoB and Duran get killed and their experiments become essentially harmless. Which I find extremely uninteresting.

We've both agreed in the past that Starcraft suffered from sequelitis, right? That's precisely why I was never interested in these sorts of endless sequel discussions revolving around QoB and Duran. As far as I'm concerned, the only non-sequelitis timeline you can plot for Starcraft is as follows:

1. Protoss and Zerg attack Koprulu
2. Zerg consume Terrans, develop neurolisks and psi-colonies and whatever else they desired
3. Zerg invade Protoss Empire and whatever other empires exist in the galaxy
4. (Optional) The Protoss and Terrans and whoever devise some special plan to delay the Zerg, but the Zerg eventually overcome it
5. Either Protoss win and exterminate the Zerg, or the Zerg win and proceed to devour the galaxy

It came to it's natural end... and then you became obnoxious whenever someone discussed what they liked about Starcraft and not only in your own threads. Like I said, you're only interested in pursuing your own bias. You're not really interested in discussion unless it suits your preference. No one wants to engage because they already know what you want to "discuss" (so there's no real point to discussing further) and don't want to be belittled by you. The type of discussion you setup are not inclusive and only potentially fun for you.

Fair enough.

I don't think it came to its natural end. People just lost steam and interest in this forum due to the general burnout in the lore fandom as a result of SC2's writing.

But if you really feel that way, I can just switch to alternatehistory or something and see if I have better luck there... Oh wait, I've been trying to do that for years now and nobody's interested. That's why I'm seriously considering commissioning an artist to draw space marine cowboy catboys in Confederate flag print underwear.

I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place here. I don't like Starcraft fandom anymore because it's clearly a bad fit for me, but you guys are also the only ones with remotely similar interests to myself. Emphasis on remotely.

[Turalyon]

@sandwich_bird already pointed out general problems with the way that the Starcraft script was written. Pacing issues, presentation of characters and plot points, the disjointed structure of the narrative, etc. The sort of things I expect that you guys could generally agree on are actual flaws in the execution.

The criticisms I bring to the table are based on a deep-level analysis of both the text and the way that the writer conceived it in the first place.

I agree on principle but does all of this really stop someone from being able to engage with the work and in various ways? I don't think so.

From a metatextual analysis it's obvious that Metzen had no idea what he was doing. As @sandwich_bird put it so succinctly, it's a mess of random cool ideas.

Honestly, any writer who claims to have everything planned out in advance is spouting bs. All fiction is just made up along the way, with a varying degree and commitment of the author at hand. I'm fine with Starcraft being a "mess of random cool ideas" because the ideas, at the least, are cool to think about.

... the game doesn't feel like an organic exploration of its setup (regardless of any rationalizations you guys try to come up whenever I bring this up).

This is actually a reasonably debatable point though. For example, the "determinant" plot point is a contrivance (and an abhorrent one if I were to adopt your stance) yet you belabour the exact nature of what that plot point is as being more of detriment than the fact that the plot point itself is the actual problem. One should actually care less that the determinant happens to be Kerrigan, than the fact that the idea of there being a determinant is an artifice for having the Zerg behave a certain way toward the Terrans. Like it or not, what we have in the game (only in Sc1 though) is an adequate exploration of the setup (in that it is, at a superficial level, addressed) and a (most likely unintended) subversion of that contrivance because of how unnecessary the "determinant" is nor should be in that despite all the hoo-ha about the Overmind wanting one, getting one and the following shenanigans of obtaining it, it is the pursuit of that very thing that leads to its own downfall. The plot device of the contrivance is not important in the sense of the mechanics of how it fits in the world but in the narrative exploration of the Overmind's character - in particular, its hubris.

SC1 is clearly two different main plot threads crudely glued together. Episode 1 is its own plot thread about terran rebellion. Episodes 2 and 3 are their own plot thread about zerg/protoss war. It's pretty obvious that Metzen cared most about the first plot and put far less work into the second. The overarching story isn't cohesive and the two plots never come together in an organic fashion.

It's cohesive enough. The first one is an introduction to the universe using the Terrans as a relatable audience substitute into that world and setting up the threat. The second episode is about the threat and how much of a threat it is. The third episode is the resolution of that threat and an equilibrium being obtained. That they're disjointed is by design since they focus on the characters of each respective faction which are wholly different from one other in many aspects. You should be grateful that they feature some characters overlapping across the stories as an attempt to keep it cohesive, but no wait, you hate that, too... oh dear.

Not only that, but the campaigns rely on plot devices that come across as lazy and blatantly amateurish.

It's subjective though. The only true thing that can be said of plot devices is that they are necessary conceits to move a narrative along and I'm not disputing that fact. A plot device being more palatable to an audience/it's true value lies not in how it is used to mechanically affect the universe, the denizens of that universe, nor even the consequences of it's existence/use, but in how it it is used to explore the characters. The Psi-Emitter has "importance" in moving the narrative artificially and conceited as is expected for a plot device but, arguably, it's used more importantly as a way to explore the motivations and consequent actions of the characters (ie: it's used to highlight the resolve and tenacity of Mengsk). In contrast to the Psi-Disruptor in BW, that plot device is used in an artificial manner in not only the narrative but also for its characters (ie: as affecting as it is for Stukov to being murdered ostensibly by DuGalles direction, it only came about because of artificial stupidity of DuGalle not seeing the value of the disruptor and Stukov being secretive about it and not talking to his childhood friend).

The depiction of Kerry/QoB and Tassadar as messiahs who single-handedly solve the problems afflicting their respective sides is... well, it's lazy.

This is far more true for Tassadar than it is for Kerrigan though if we limit ourselves to Sc1 only that is. Kerrigan actually achieves nothing and is superfluous in Sc1 despite all the attention that is lavished on her in the game's stpry. I enjoy that irony most of all especially given the subtle implication that the preceding setup of a "determinant" turns out to be just as bollocks as well. I actually don't see Kerrigan in Sc1 as being depicted as the "bees-knees" - only that the characters and story wants to make us believe that it is so. The anti-climax of her not having an effect on the story of Sc1, nor being involved in the final fights of the Zerg and Protoss campaigns and that, in a roundabout way, is the reason why the Overmind ultimately lost is interesting to ponder.

I never understood the post-BW illusions you guys conjured because, as far as I ever thought, there's no way to really continue the story satisfactorily after BW.

I agree with you. Subjective preference/dislikes aside, BW is actually a natural end to the story due to the very things you said. The status quo had shifted so enormously, there's only way it can go and if not, to continue like it did before would require contrivance (Sc2 opted for the latter). I, for one, never had any preconceived notions of a post-BW continuation as such (like I've said many times on her before, I never wanted a sequel after BW even when it first came out). A rework of BW on the otherhand is a different thing and we've discussed that at length in previous threads (which are probably lost now due to all the troubles with these forums).

We've both agreed in the past that Starcraft suffered from sequelitis, right?

Yes. I'm a little bit different from you in that you still want a sequel/it to continue. I believe there's nothing new for a sequel to explore (Sc2 proved me right in all accounts) beyond rehashing. I find the universe more interesting in the short-stories that focus on the bit players and don't have universe shattering consequences/overblown stakes than anything else.

[Mislagnissa]

The forum ate the last couple of posts I made in this thread.

I have to say that I am pumped for future stories.

I cannot wait to see the return of the xel'naga and UED again.

[ragnarok]

And here I thought you didn't give a damn about xel'naga lore.

[Mislagnissa]

And here I thought you didn't give a damn about xel'naga lore.

I love it. The xel’naga are the demons of the SC universe. Teh source of all evil and racism and evil. Teh prime movers of everything.

In SC3 or whatever the next campaign will be, I expect a new Xel’Naga will be introduced as the villain, Kerry and Ray will break up and then get back together at the end like they always do (maybe Ray’s supposedly dead son Johnny will come back as an adult soap opera style and Kerry will cheat on Ray with Johnny like in Farscape and maybe Ray will go evil and have to be permakilled or something, because everybody knows we only play SC for telenovela antics like that) and the plot will be a copy of SC2/WC3. I am super pumped for that.

[ragnarok]

I'm sure what you just said was all sarcasm

[sandwich_bird]

I love it. The xel’naga are the demons of the SC universe. Teh source of all evil and racism and evil. Teh prime movers of everything.

In SC3 or whatever the next campaign will be, I expect a new Xel’Naga will be introduced as the villain, Kerry and Ray will break up and then get back together at the end like they always do (maybe Ray’s supposedly dead son Johnny will come back as an adult soap opera style and Kerry will cheat on Ray with Johnny like in Farscape and maybe Ray will go evil and have to be permakilled or something, because everybody knows we only play SC for telenovela antics like that) and the plot will be a copy of SC2/WC3. I am super pumped for that.

l.o.l.

[Nissa]

The people who still like Starcraft 2 like it for its gameplay. They are likewise critical to indifferent about the story as it stands.

[The_Blade]

Not only indifferent, but even ignorant. IIRC in an interview, David Kim said less than 15% (or some other low percentage) of the SC2 players have actually completed the trilogy campaigns. While less than 60% have any progress on any of the campaigns. IIRC it was during a BlizzCon panel where Co-op took the centerstage of SC2 design for the first time.

[Mislagnissa]

I'm sure what you just said was all sarcasm

Nope. The StarCraft story is a bad soap opera and should be treated like one. If I want a military scifi story, then I should write one myself.

l.o.l.

Soaps are best when they are as silly as possible.

The people who still like Starcraft 2 like it for its gameplay. They are likewise critical to indifferent about the story as it stands.

Not only indifferent, but even ignorant. IIRC in an interview, David Kim said less than 15% (or some other low percentage) of the SC2 players have actually completed the trilogy campaigns. While less than 60% have any progress on any of the campaigns. IIRC it was during a BlizzCon panel where Co-op took the centerstage of SC2 design for the first time.

That is interesting. Do you have a source for that?

One of the devs for Supreme Commander said that only ~10% of players ever played multiplayer. Source: https://twitter.com/BrodyHiggerson/s...16163023507456