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Thread: I am going to Blizzcon

  1. #41
    The_Blade's Avatar Administrator
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    Default Re: I am going to Blizzcon

    Honestly, Misla, I feel like you overuse the same issues around Kerrigan over and over to dispute several topics. Sure she's a human-like character in an alien environment, but her character makes sense within the StarCraft narrative. As well, something relatable is needed to appreciate conflicts with aliens. Even your plot device (the Zerg's search through the Terran Worlds for "new traits") points towards the assimilation of humans into the Zerg Hive.

    I would have switched little from SC vanilla, but BW for me should have been about the imminent threat each of the races represent upon one another and how the struggles between their factions affect the position of the whole race. No need for UED or Xel'naga.

    -The Invasion of Aiur would have been a necessity to bring down the Protoss into the same playing field as Zerg and Terran.
    -The whole ghost program and the Confederacy's efforts to control the Zerg could have evolved naturally into the faction the UED played.
    -Duran could have been a failed Terran operative lost on Tarsonis
    -Give the Kelmorians and Umojans some core planets and we have 4 strong Terran factions, alongside lesser scavengers and survivors
    -Terrans adapt quickly into Protoss Tech.
    -Give the Protoss some super stations or at least planetary platforms too.
    -Kerrigan's humanity being an oddball for terror and mercy rather than a path towards trusting her.

    SC2 should have then followed the same trend.
    -Expand the Protoss faction throught the Purifier AI
    -Primal Zerg blooming on planets were a hivemind is not present and the DNA pools fostering life (very hyper-aggressive evolving life). This could explain why the Terrans were never able to come back to Tarsonis. [Think Annihilation (2018)]
    -Xel'naga and other civilization's vestigial tech used as leverage between races as the Kropulu conflict grows outward.
    -Nova as the perfect conduit with the Protoss
    -Terrans being terrans were politics and trade play very important roles as to who's going to get vaporized.

    Also give Blizzard a benefit of the doubt when talking about SC:BW. They were making games, not stories. Blizzard's worst storytelling happened when they tried hardest to create better and better stories. Moreover, give us the benefit of the doubt too. Sure SC lore does not attract as many people as it did, but we are still "here". Most efforts are quite isolated, tho. The best example you can see is through the SC art community. Even by itself artwork is world-building.

    Scifi in general has always been lacking in number of fans. Starwars is the largest with a few tens of millions. StarTrek, Battlestar Galactica and Doctor Who are all close second with a few millions. Then we have all the lesser ones where we are included alongside Halo, Warhammer 40k Resident Evil and Terminator. Regardless of the scale, all the communities have created on average more content than fantasy communities.

    Here's a recent gem i found:

  2. #42

    Default Re: I am going to Blizzcon

    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    I respectfully disagree that you need to read the manual to get SC1. I found it pretty easy to grasp as a kid, and didn't read the manual until I got my own copy (first was my brother's or his friend's, don't remember which). I also feel that the story dispensal to be adequate.
    With or without the manual, the game's script goes in weird and disjointed directions.

    Which isn't surprising since Metzen was a young adult at the time with no experience and development was apparently quite tumultuous: the cinematic team made the cinematics separately from the script and the script had to be rewritten to account for them, the graphics were changed completely after E3, the plot was clearly being made up as they went along, etc.

    The sheer opposition to criticism of any kind suggests to me that fans are blinded by nostalgia. While the plot might work to move the missions along, it's not actually all that great. It feels like at least two different stories crudely mashed together. It feels like Metzen really wanted to do an epic heroic fantasy plot and settled for an RTS.

    When Metzen finally did make his epic heroic fantasy plot in WC3... it wasn't actually that good. Arthas' fall clearly had the most effort put into it, and it's not actually that great once you start thinking about it. I wish Blizzard would okay a movie adaptation of Arthas' fall, simply to show fans that they're blinded by nostalgia and the story isn't really as good as they remember.*


    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    As for the moment of Mengsk blaming the Zerg on the Confederacy, I liked this as a bit of world-building, because it (1) establishes Mengsk as someone who manipulates information to his advantage, (2) shows the misconceptions people can get about new events, (3) elucidates the nature of the Confederacy, and (4), slowly makes the story bigger than its previous status.

    Point 2 is especially important, because many noob writers more or less accidentally have all characters know all information that the reader would know, despite the fact that a given character only knows what they themselves have seen. They don't have the reader's perspective. Since Mengsk doesn't understand the Zerg at this point, it makes sense that he would draw a semi-false conclusion about them.
    I don't have a problem with that idea, but the execution could definitely have been improved.

    That's really my problem with SC1. It has interesting ideas, but the execution is sloppy. It could be so much better in the hands of a writer who knows what they're doing and actually likes military scifi.



    *If you want to know my problem with Arthas' fall, aside from my general distaste for the whole "save the world" concept, then it's for two reasons.

    Firstly, Arthas' fall is way too quick. While the missions may take several hours, that's not a substitute for character development. If just look as the actual script, then this should be obvious. In terms of Arthas' character development, there's little buildup to him deciding to slaughter Strathholme. In Hearthglen, he learns that the plague turns people into the undead. In Stratholme, he decides to immediately kill the populace rather than try to find a cure first. This makes him seem like he was always a callous psychopath and just never had the option to express it before now.

    You could seriously build an entire campaign around him trying and failing to find a cure before going mad enough to go for the slaughter option, which would better develop his character and make him seem less like a callous psychopath to begin with. It would also neatly silence all those fans who rightfully criticized him for not doing precisely that.

    Secondly, we don't see Arthas' descent into an actual villain and his villainy is quite shallow. Frostmourne just eats his soul and he decides to slaughter the kingdom he previously tried to save. By extension, the undead campaign is extremely boring because the protagonists are all Saturday morning cartoon villains. We know the Lich King wants freedom from the Legion, but we get no sense of his goals outside of that. Does he want to conquer the world? Why? What is going through the heads of the protagonists beyond blind obedience to the plot?

    Beyond those two issues, I'm generally distasteful that WC3 decided to degenerate into a generic "teamup to fight the bad guys" rather than a continuation and expansion of the more serious and socio-political tone of the previous two games. Prior to be retconed as peaceful native american caricatures who were corrupted by those mean demons, the orcs were the equivalent of European colonists. Or nazis.

    WC3's retcon to the orcs is the equivalent of saying that the colonists and Nazis were actually nice people corrupted by demons. The reason why this is bad is because it contributes to historical ignorance and the likelihood that history will repeat itself. Evil isn't some external force represented by demons. Everyone has the capacity for evil of their own free will, and most of the time we won't even notice we're committing evil acts because we'll say anything remotely convincing to justify our actions.

    Even Tolkien, who popularized the idea of fantasy dark lords, said in his lore that Morgoth (Arda's equivalent of Satan) exists in every particle of Middle Earth. Even with Sauron gone, everybody still has the capacity for evil because it is quite literally part of their makeup. (Tolkien was Catholic, so this is obviously supposed to represent Original Sin.)

    But I digress.

    I'd be okay with the broad strokes of WC3 if the setting and plot was revised to have more depth in terms of characterization, politics, etc. Some people over on Scrolls of Lore forums, like Marthen and Grackle, have tried to write alternate histories where this is the case. They're difficult to find, revised a lot over the years, and I don't know if they've ever been summarized in one place.

    For example, the Burning Legion could be tweaked into demonic space pirates that raid worlds for magic rather than the incarnation of all evil.




    And I feel the same way about Starcraft. I never liked the Raynor/Kerry/Mengsk/Xel'naga drama because it never felt believable. It felt like Metzen bolted a soap opera plot onto an otherwise serviceable military scifi setting to the detriment of that setting.

    I wanted to learn more about the Confederate colonies, the Zerg broods, and the Protoss tribes. Not see them arbitrarily ignored or destroyed because the writer likes his soap opera characters more and prefers generic "save the world from demons" plots.

    But overall it's largely pointless for me to complain because the Blizzard fans put SC1 and WC3 on undeserved pedestals and hate the idea of anything that doesn't continue the same soap opera plots with the same tiny cast into infinity.

    The only recourse I have is to keep chugging away at my original universe ideas, which I will never ever be able to realize because I don't have the skills or the funds to make them. In fact, I'm so desperate to pull myself out of the mud that I'd commission an artist to draw the iconic cyborg cowboy space marine characters in both clothed, nude, Confederate flag underwear, and catboy/catgirl versions so that I can bank on sex appeal to draw an audience. And to outdo Overwatch's cynical LGBT "support," I'd state that all the characters have modular sexual orientation/sex/gender/whatever because they're transhumans.

    And I'd do the same for the alien characters too, even if it makes no sense because my space bugs and egyptian robots don't have sex, gender, or any sentimentality for humanoid form. If I had to contrive an excuse, then the aliens created humanoid avatars specifically to psychologically disarm humans. Or they could be furries, whatever.

    But I digress. Discussing Blizzard properties causes me psychological torment. If anybody would like to discuss my ideas for rip-offs that aim for deeper and more "realistic" (I guess) storytelling, I already made a thread for that.

  3. #43

    Default Re: I am going to Blizzcon

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Blade View Post
    Honestly, Misla, I feel like you overuse the same issues around Kerrigan over and over to dispute several topics. Sure she's a human-like character in an alien environment, but her character makes sense within the StarCraft narrative. As well, something relatable is needed to appreciate conflicts with aliens. Even your plot device (the Zerg's search through the Terran Worlds for "new traits") points towards the assimilation of humans into the Zerg Hive.

    I would have switched little from SC vanilla, but BW for me should have been about the imminent threat each of the races represent upon one another and how the struggles between their factions affect the position of the whole race. No need for UED or Xel'naga.

    -The Invasion of Aiur would have been a necessity to bring down the Protoss into the same playing field as Zerg and Terran.
    -The whole ghost program and the Confederacy's efforts to control the Zerg could have evolved naturally into the faction the UED played.
    -Duran could have been a failed Terran operative lost on Tarsonis
    -Give the Kelmorians and Umojans some core planets and we have 4 strong Terran factions, alongside lesser scavengers and survivors
    -Terrans adapt quickly into Protoss Tech.
    -Give the Protoss some super stations or at least planetary platforms too.
    -Kerrigan's humanity being an oddball for terror and mercy rather than a path towards trusting her.

    SC2 should have then followed the same trend.
    -Expand the Protoss faction throught the Purifier AI
    -Primal Zerg blooming on planets were a hivemind is not present and the DNA pools fostering life (very hyper-aggressive evolving life). This could explain why the Terrans were never able to come back to Tarsonis. [Think Annihilation (2018)]
    -Xel'naga and other civilization's vestigial tech used as leverage between races as the Kropulu conflict grows outward.
    -Nova as the perfect conduit with the Protoss
    -Terrans being terrans were politics and trade play very important roles as to who's going to get vaporized.

    Also give Blizzard a benefit of the doubt when talking about SC:BW. They were making games, not stories. Blizzard's worst storytelling happened when they tried hardest to create better and better stories. Moreover, give us the benefit of the doubt too. Sure SC lore does not attract as many people as it did, but we are still "here". Most efforts are quite isolated, tho. The best example you can see is through the SC art community. Even by itself artwork is world-building.

    Scifi in general has always been lacking in number of fans. Starwars is the largest with a few tens of millions. StarTrek, Battlestar Galactica and Doctor Who are all close second with a few millions. Then we have all the lesser ones where we are included alongside Halo, Warhammer 40k Resident Evil and Terminator. Regardless of the scale, all the communities have created on average more content than fantasy communities.

    Here's a recent gem i found:
    And this is why I hate discussing Starcraft. All the stuff I like nobody else likes, and all the stuff everybody else likes I don't like.

    I'm not going to bother responding to any of your points. Starcraft is dead anyway.

    If you want to have a polite discussion with me that doesn't make me want to kill myself out of disgust and contempt, then I made a thread for discussing my rip-off ideas.

  4. #44

    Default Re: I am going to Blizzcon

    Starcraft is obviously a sore point for Misla. Please everyone don't talk about Starcraft here in case he happens to come across it and hurts his feelings.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  5. #45

    Default Re: I am going to Blizzcon

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Starcraft is obviously a sore point for Misla. Please everyone don't talk about Starcraft here in case he happens to come across it and hurts his feelings.
    Starcraft isn't the sore point. The sore point is that I'm the only person in the universe who actually likes the Confederacy, Overmind, and Conclave and wants to see them further explored and expanded.

    That's why I decided to brainstorm a rip-off where I can do that myself. Starcraft fans are apparently able to discuss that quite happily if the serial numbers are filled off.

  6. #46

    Default Re: I am going to Blizzcon

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Starcraft isn't the sore point. The sore point is that I'm the only person in the universe who actually likes the Confederacy, Overmind, and Conclave and wants to see them further explored and expanded.

    That's why I decided to brainstorm a rip-off where I can do that myself. Starcraft fans are apparently able to discuss that quite happily if the serial numbers are filled off.
    I wouldn't mind to see further explorations of the Conclave, but I still want to see it done after the SC2 lore. You just don't want to see any ideas for post-SC2.

  7. #47

    Default Re: I am going to Blizzcon

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Starcraft isn't the sore point.
    Umm, you reacting to harmless rational counterpoints and perspective takes on what Sc1/BW was like for others as if it's some personal affront and being suicidally depressed about it says otherwise. It's like you're caught up in a toxic/abusive relationship with Starcraft - you hate it but continue to believe it's not really like that/it's better than what it is and cling to that like it's real and not something that isn't likely going to be much better (though different, which isn't the same thing) than what we got.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    The sore point is that I'm the only person in the universe who actually likes the Confederacy, Overmind, and Conclave and wants to see them further explored and expanded.
    That's bs and you know it. There are Sc fans here who want to see those things explore and expanded - it's likely just not in the way that you'd prefer. The real issue is that you feign wanting open discussion but only if it conforms to your bias - which is paradoxical. Your vehement shutdown of any other discourse that doesn't fit your preference betrays your supposed intent for open discussion. Is it any wonder then why people don't either respond in kind or even at all to your suggestions? It'd be like walking on eggshells for them. Even if they did, it's either they pander to you or you've already got the handwave to any problem they may raise (which is kind of pandering to yourself), so it's kinda pointless for them since it'd seems like you'd be better off just discussing it with yourself. There's ultimately nothing to discuss with your ideas beyond saying "I like it/don't like it" really.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  8. #48

    Default Re: I am going to Blizzcon

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    I wouldn't mind to see further explorations of the Conclave, but I still want to see it done after the SC2 lore.
    There is nothing to explore. The Conclave was arbitrarily killed off by Metzen in a retcon introduced at the beginning of BW when they survived in SC1. The Hierarchy is already the Conclave in all but name.

    Not only that, but the Protoss Empire is an inconsistent mess. The protoss apparently only lived in Aiur, Shakuras, and a few tiny colonies all located in Koprulu sector. Despite this, LotV dialogue claims that they apparently interacted with numerous alien civilizations across the galaxy. Some sources claim their Empire collapsed long ago because they were all dying of sheer old age. Other sources claim that their Empire was founded as recently a 2 or 3 thousands years ago. Sources disagree whether a protoss lifespan is roughly 1 millennium or many (in BW Zeratul states he served Raszagal for thousands of years, when the SC1 manual states his age is in the 700s or so).

    I highly doubt Blizzard will reconcile these inconsistencies, assuming they're even aware. Blizzard doesn't respect their own lore at all, so why should I? They'll retcon the lore into oblivion again because that's what Blizzard does with all their stories. There's no point in getting invested.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    You just don't want to see any ideas for post-SC2.
    I don't want to see any ideas for post SC1/BW, for that matter. It doesn't really matter anyway, because Blizzard is going to retcon the details of SC2 into oblivion because that's what they do. They don't respect their own lore at all. They won't listen to fan complaints either, as the eredar retcon controversy shows.

    As I said, there's no point getting invested in any Blizzard lore because Blizzard always retcons them into oblivion. I don't see how that's so difficult to understand.

    I don't understand why you're invested in SC2 when, IIRC, you already explained that you know Blizzard will retcon it into oblivion. The existence of SC2, or any preceding games, is entirely superfluous to Blizzard.

    They pulled the Ihan-rii out of their butt in the last warchest, and I expect there's plenty more where that came from. The Warcraft lore mess is a perfect indication of what's to come.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Umm, you reacting to harmless rational counterpoints and perspective takes on what Sc1/BW was like for others as if it's some personal affront and being suicidally depressed about it says otherwise. It's like you're caught up in a toxic/abusive relationship with Starcraft - you hate it but continue to believe it's not really like that/it's better than what it is and cling to that like it's real and not something that isn't likely going to be much better (though different, which isn't the same thing) than what we got.
    Abusive relationship sounds about right.

    I don't think my imagined story of Starcraft would actually have been better... in Blizzard's hands, anyway. They suck at writing regardless. If I had been in charge of writing, then it would have been better than canon because Blizzard sets such a low bar to begin with.

    Pretty much every writing forum I asked agreed that Starcraft has a schlock story. It's impossible to get discussions about fanfiction going because nobody actually likes it. Everyone thinks it's a crappy rip-off of Warhammer 40k and would prefer to discuss that instead.

    The only people who don't think Starcraft is an uninteresting rip-off of 40k unworthy of discussion are the vanishingly small minority of Starcraft lore fans. Most of whom left the fandom after SC2 came out.

    Part of this is because Blizzard clearly doesn't care to explore Starcraft's lore beyond the Kerry/Raynor romance, and the other part is that Blizzard's writing quality is schlock and always has been. It was simply less obvious in SC1 and WC3 because of the technical limitations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    That's bs and you know it. There are Sc fans here who want to see those things explore and expanded - it's likely just not in the way that you'd prefer.
    You mean not at all? The Confederacy/colonies/squadrons, Overmind/broods, and Conclave/Protoss Empire/tribes are dead and never coming back. At least not until Blizzard starts scraping the bottom of the barrel for skins.

    None of the fans here have ever been interested. Most of you just want to see Brood War 2, as if it would be any better than SC2. (BTW, did you notice the hypocrisy of criticizing my imaginary desires while holding different but equally imaginary desires?) I hate to break it to you guys, but Blizzard is 1) never going to make BW2, and 2) even if they tried the story would still suck because Blizzard can't write.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    The real issue is that you feign wanting open discussion but only if it conforms to your bias - which is paradoxical. Your vehement shutdown of any other discourse that doesn't fit your preference betrays your supposed intent for open discussion. Is it any wonder then why people don't either respond in kind or even at all to your suggestions? It'd be like walking on eggshells for them. Even if they did, it's either they pander to you or you've already got the handwave to any problem they may raise (which is kind of pandering to yourself), so it's kinda pointless for them since it'd seems like you'd be better off just discussing it with yourself. There's ultimately nothing to discuss with your ideas beyond saying "I like it/don't like it" really.
    The real issue is that you guys have a mental block relating specifically to the Starcraft IP. When I made a thread for a blatant rip-off you guys had no problems whatsoever discussing with me and vice versa. We seemed to have genuine fun spitballing ideas.

    What happened to that?

    I'm still open to discussing that, you know. I just posted a drabble about the assimilation of a new species by the swarmers to provide atmosphere. You can read it and let me know what you think.

  9. #49

    Default Re: I am going to Blizzcon

    What happened to that? Um, it exists in its own thread. There. The trouble is, you continually pursue the topic in every other single thread, changing whatever the topic was to what you want for Starcraft. We can't talk about anything else, because if we do, you come in and start talking about your thing, accusing us of loving Kerrigan and Raynor too much. The truth is we're not necessarily obsessed with those characters, we just don't demonize them the way you do, and you act as if this is some capital offense.

    And using depression as a shield for criticism is below the belt.
    "Seeing Fenix once more perplexes me. I feel sadness, when I should feel joy."
    - Artanis.

  10. #50

    Default Re: I am going to Blizzcon

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    I don't think my imagined story of Starcraft would actually have been better... in Blizzard's hands, anyway. They suck at writing regardless. If I had been in charge of writing, then it would have been better than canon because Blizzard sets such a low bar to begin with.
    Hmmm. I'm not sure that you even noticed that you contradicted yourself. It's that or you need to provide more contextualisation, like in your use of the word "better". "Better" to whom? By the way you present yourself here, it seems it's only better to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Pretty much every writing forum I asked agreed that Starcraft has a schlock story.
    Why/who would anyone talk about Starcraft in a writing forum as if it was an exemplar literary work in the first place? O.o

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Part of this is because Blizzard clearly doesn't care to explore Starcraft's lore beyond the Kerry/Raynor romance, and the other part is that Blizzard's writing quality is schlock and always has been. It was simply less obvious in SC1 and WC3 because of the technical limitations.
    I don't really care if Blizz explores it, now or even back then (I didn't care much for a sequel and ended up being vindicated afterall). I was happy enough with Sc1 being interesting enough and sparking my imagination. I'm happy to be done with it (even way back then) but that doesn't mean we can't still talk about it even now, as some on here are wont to do. That is why this forum exists (or existed as the case may turn out to be).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    You mean not at all? The Confederacy/colonies/squadrons, Overmind/broods, and Conclave/Protoss Empire/tribes are dead and never coming back. At least not until Blizzard starts scraping the bottom of the barrel for skins.

    None of the fans here have ever been interested. Most of you just want to see Brood War 2, as if it would be any better than SC2. (BTW, did you notice the hypocrisy of criticizing my imaginary desires while holding different but equally imaginary desires?) I hate to break it to you guys, but Blizzard is 1) never going to make BW2, and 2) even if they tried the story would still suck because Blizzard can't write.
    Nah mate, people on here are fully aware that they're indulging in fanwank territory. Not all have illusions of wanting it to come into fruition nor saying their vision is better. We're just sharing what interests us and having fun at the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    When I made a thread for a blatant rip-off you guys had no problems whatsoever discussing with me and vice versa. We seemed to have genuine fun spitballing ideas.

    What happened to that?
    It came to it's natural end... and then you became obnoxious whenever someone discussed what they liked about Starcraft and not only in your own threads. Like I said, you're only interested in pursuing your own bias. You're not really interested in discussion unless it suits your preference. No one wants to engage because they already know what you want to "discuss" (so there's no real point to discussing further) and don't want to be belittled by you. The type of discussion you setup are not inclusive and only potentially fun for you.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

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