Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?

[DemolitionSquid]

I would like it if people talked about whether starcraft 2 should be a game where you have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements.

Short discussion, man.

Unanimous, "no."

[Kimera757]

People might do that if you remove the confusing quote.

[supersonic]

I would like it if people talked about whether starcraft 2 should be a game where you have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements. But instead were getting just about every excuse under the sun for how what Dustin said wasnt really what Dustin said.

I'm pretty sure it's obvious, the answer is no, the game works great if not in the words of DS: "9.5 balanced" and I would have to agree.

You still have to make a conscious effort to making units and you still have to hot key and make sure units are always pumping, it's even more pressing when you are working with something like warp-in. Even though it does give a 10 second window it can be a lot more punishing to someone while a micro battle is going on, than to someone who can Q up 2-3 units and not have to worry about it.

[Islandsnake]

What the hell is this thread?

You DO have to go back to your base to produce reinforcements, if you have a hotkey to a building thats in your base you can use that to produce units without dragging your mouse across the screen. But the building is still in your base and your still using commands to build units in your base so in a sense your still "having to go back to ure base".

The same could be said for supply depots, if you want to continue to make units your going to have to go back to your base to make a suppy depot.

But wait!

What if you bring a scv with you on your push then your not going back to your base OMgomgomgomgmo!

or

What if you tell one scv to build like 15 depots in a row because you have excess money, which makes going back to your base not required for awhile.

Who cares, it doesn't matter what matters is he wants you to have take some attention away from your battle to create units, and to do other things which sometimes require you to switch screens or at least use hotkeys assigned to things. Even with the best hotkey setups in the world, your still going to need to go back to make tech buildings and additional production buildings pretty often.

Its not like you don't know how the game functions already what is the point of asking something like this?

[supersonic]

What the hell is this thread?

You DO have to go back to your base to produce reinforcements, if you have a hotkey to a building thats in your base you can use that to produce units without dragging your mouse across the screen. But the building is still in your base and your still using commands to build units in your base so in a sense your still "having to go back to ure base".

The same could be said for supply depots, if you want to continue to make units your going to have to go back to your base to make a suppy depot.

But wait!

What if you bring a scv with you on your push then your not going back to your base OMgomgomgomgmo!

or

What if you tell one scv to build like 15 depots in a row because you have excess money, which makes going back to your base not required for awhile.

Who cares, it doesn't matter what matters is he wants you to have take some attention away from your battle to create units, and to do other things which sometimes require you to switch screens or at least use hotkeys assigned to things.

Its not like you don't know how the game functions already what is the point of asking something like this?

Yeah I was pretty sure that's the jist of what Dustin was trying to say, and I think that's how it is and should be.

[ArcherofAiur]

Yeah I was pretty sure that's the jist of what Dustin was trying to say, and I think that's how it is and should be.

You guys will try anything to change his words around. Please reread the interview and tell me how his answer about manual labor over automation is really talking about making units using hotkeys of buildings "in your base". Oh and anyone saying he was talking just about queues obviously didnt even read the whole article.

Q: We are under the impression that there is more Micro in Sc2 than in part one. That is: We have to click more.
A: That's right, there is a lot of Micromanagement at the time being. If it stays that way depends ultimately on the beta test. Besides this, we have occupied ourselves extensively with Micro and Macromanagement - what the player must manage on a small scale, and what he can manage on a large scale - in the past months. Right now you have to do a lot by hand. For example, you trigger the Stalker's blink. Or you burrow and unburrow Roaches. Or you impede ground troups with the Disruptor's force field. This leads to a lot of Micromanagement, more than in SC1. Therefore, Sc2 plays out in a very complex way, especially towards the end of a match. But Macro should still stay important. Whoever does not cherish Micro can still earn victories. Especially by focussing on establishing a strong economy and then overunning your foe with a superior army.

Q: Apropos huge armies. In comparison to its predecessor, you are allowed to select many more units in Sc2. And that's great. But still, some game concepts seem antiquated, for example the 3D camera that does not zoom out very far. Or the production queue that can only hold five units. Why did you change unit selection but kept the other elements the same?
A: There is a quite obvious reason for the camera position. I am not a big fan of zooming out very far from battles. In other games, this might work out, but not in Starcraft. There is so much Micro that the battles would look confusing if you could zoom out further. Also the atmosphere would get lost - the units would transform into tiny symbols and you couldn't recognise anymore, how diligently they are designed. The feeling of fighting for a distinctive faction would get lost - and just in Starcraft, with its three characteristic races! Zoomed out very far, those battles would degenerate to a feud of ants. This might be appropriate for games like Supreme Commander, which are fully geared towards the zoom function, that have huge maps on which the units traverse very long distances. But Starcraft works differently: It happens faster, matches often last only half an hour. A zoom function simply wouldn't fit in.

Q: And what about production queues?
A: There you see that Sc2 is orientated towards esports. We have to keep a fragile balance: The game should offer comfortable usage, but it should not play by itself, else the challenge would evaporate. Let's see what the Beta testers say about it.

Q: So manual labor instead of automation?
A: Exactly. There is a nice story about this. Back then, I was working on addons to Mechwarrior 2. That's how I know that there was still automatic targetting in an early version: You only had to decide, which weapons to fire in what order, the Computer would guide them to the target. The only thing you had to watch out for was not to overheat. That might even have been interesting, but just for few players. The majority wanted action, and they got it in the end. The same applies to Starcraft: We want the players to go back to their base in order to produce reinforcements. We want them to really take care instead of relying on an automatic process.

Q: That leads us back to the balance between Micro and Macro. Since Blizzcon 2008, you have changed the economy system again. Back then there were already two vespene geysers in each base, but they would shut down for a short time after having collected a certain amount of gas. Therefore you would have to check the status of your source of income frequently, forcing a large amount of Micromanagement. Why this change?
A: Oh dear, we are thinking about how to modify the geysers since forever. We want you to have to manage your economy more. And the geysers would be a perfect start point, since they were quite unspectacular in the past: You sent three workers there, and that's it. So we decided to change the mechanic, which hasn't succeeded thus far. It was extremely hard to balance the new system. Had we decided to regulate the gas supply necessarily by hand, to collect the regular amount of resources, we would have severerly disadvantaged the newer players, since they couldn't afford expensive units like Battle Cruisers and Templar. But just these units have the most appeal to casual players. Therefore, we would have to modify the mechanic in that way, that you still earn enough gas if you leave the geysers to themselves. But then, Micro experts would collect by far more resources and would produce only very mighty units like Carriers and Archons. That would also be unfair. In addition, the constant geyser-checking would become annoying very quickly. We want to reward the players, not annoy them.

Q: Sounds reasonable. I suppose that's why you have introduced the three new special units and buildings: The Queen of Zerg, the Protoss Dark Pylon, and the Satellite Center of Terran. Each of these new kids has defensive abilities that also affect resource collection.
A: True, the new talents are supposed to breath life into the economic system, for example by giving the players additional resources.

Q: How?
A: In SC1, collecting resources was almost identical for every race. There were small differences, such as Protoss workers being able to resume collecting right after warping in a building. Now we are deepening these differences. Terran can order the MULE-robot thanks to their Satellite Control center, to earn Crystals faster. The Queen offers a new method of production to Zerg. In the predecessor, they had to construct additional Hatcheries to mass-produce. Now they can build Queen alternatively to increase their number of larvae, and thus need less Hatcheries. However, the Queen's ability to spawn larvae requires a lot of Micro. The player therefore has to decide, whether to spend time on this or rather to construct additional Hatcheries. The races therefore do not only play differently, they also have more strategical options.

[Islandsnake]

What are you trying to say?

Do you think he wants you to make you go back to your base to make units?

Because you DON'T that's the fact.

Things that may make you "switch" screens ( because going back to your base is relative to where your buildings are anyway)

- Resetting rally points somtimes require you to switch screens, unless you want to rally them into the battle

- Building more Production buildings ( more rax,factorys) which in a sense lets you have more reinforcements

- Building supply depots and using your macro mechanics in a sense allows you to produce more units

-Using certain mechanics like warp in/ or changing addons


Are you suggesting hes going to take away the ability to make units with hotkeys?

I think your reading to much into what he said.

[ArcherofAiur]

Hmmmm what could he possibly mean when he says they want players to come back to the base to produce reinforcements....

[Islandsnake]

Hmmmm what could he possibly mean when he says they want players to come back to the base to produce reinforcements....

This is your thread why don't you actually stand on your points and defend what your trying to say instead of behind cryptic and side sweeping around points.


The macro mechanics?

Obviously he wants you to have to go back to your base to get more income.

To maximize your income they want you to go back to your base. Becasue players of higher levels will be very good at using the new UI and hot keys to avoid going back or switching screens.

Duh? Didnt we have a 1000000 page thread about this already?

[coreankim]

WOW this thread cracks me up.

I visit this site all the time, but never post. I just registered to point out that Archer is obviously f**king with all of you. Either that, or he's completely batsh*t retarded.

Call a spade a spade guys. Don't let some troll get you all worked up.