Battlecruiser as a support unit

[DemolitionSquid]

Well well well, youv'e got a valid point.
Correct me if I'm wrong. Carriers come with the 8 interceptors upgrade by default in SC2 besides of already 4 when built at stargate.

I believe that's correct.

I know nothing is perfect in this world, in your judgment, how balanced is SC1 from 1 to 10?

I have two numbers, based on how you want to define balanced.

Is balance: the game playable, each race have an about equal chance to win on licensed maps?

Then, 9.5.

Is balance: every unit is useful, each race have an equal chance to win without map restrictions?

Then, 4.

I believe that every unit should be viable. Not all the time, in every matchup, of course. But there shouldn't be units we only see once every 1000 games. I also believe that final balance should not be determined by the map, and things those maps must have like chokes and cliffs.

Many people disagree with me, and that's OK. But to claim SC is "perfect" when clearly its not just by looking at the near uselessness of a unit like the Scout or the variability of the Carrier... that's absurd.

[SaharaDrac]

HEY I know let's talk about how to fix Carriers.

[DemolitionSquid]

HEY I know let's talk about how to fix Carriers.

I have an easy fix, but they would no longer be Carriers as we know them. My ideal situation would likely be voted down by every person here.

[supersonic]

A bunch of people BMWC about the art. There's also issues with "critical mass" and its apparent inability to beat the battlecruiser. (The battlecruiser got significant ability changes in SC II; carriers did not.)

?? I dunno where you heard this from but it's dead wrong, Max supply BCs with full upgrades and D-defensive matrix upgrade (200 more hp?) couldn't beat the same stats and supply of Carriers, I tested it.

[Kimera757]

There have been videos disagreeing with this. Although, with the constant stat changes...

[MattII]

I don't really agree with the OP statement about the BC being unuseful, but I will suggest a few extra upgrade:
-Sensor Suite: The BC becomes a detector.
-Shuttle Bays: The BC can transport a Medivac's worth of units.
-Overhaul: The BC gets 4 more batteries (so the BC gets 8 damage by 12, rather than 8 by 8).

As for the Carrier, the first thing I'd do is weaken the Interceptors a bit, because I mean, yeah, they can only operate within a limited range (up to 12 distance from the Carrier, although 12 isn't to be sneezed at either), you're paying Zergling money, for something with almost three times the Hp, twice the damage less production time, no supply cost, that can fly (which is important in a melee), oh, and they don't drag on your main unit production either.

BTW DSquid, what is your proposal for the Carriers?

[Kimera757]

I have an easy fix, but they would no longer be Carriers as we know them. My ideal situation would likely be voted down by every person here.

Isn't this the tempest-shield-like solution? Or, IIRC, more complicated than that?

[Josue]

I have an easy fix, but they would no longer be Carriers as we know them. My ideal situation would likely be voted down by every person here.

Isn't this the tempest-shield-like solution? Or, IIRC, more complicated than that?

well, I guess I've seen that solution, but I dont think it or something simmilar couldn't be tweaked to become interesting, balanced and still be "The Protoss Carrier we all love"

Well this is an Idea I had about battlecruisers I posted it long ago.
I don't think its too good, but if we discuss it something good can come out of it!

Lol I like your ideas, cut the Thor in half!
Or make it a mobile super bunker!

Anyways... I just have one idea right now, I'll be posting the other four as they come to my mind.
For Battlecruiser.

Yamato gunner

Hidden Content:

Missile Pods launcher.

Hidden Content:

Defensive Matrix holder.

Hidden Content:

Well, if it's going to be the way it's described there... I'm afraid I don't like some details. i.e. What's that "Specialization" ugly crap? Why not just only require the research to have the 3 abilities available for all BC?
So, the stats would be
Yamato Gun Cannon, Missile Pods and Defensive Matrix are available after the respective upgrade is done at the Tech Lab or whichever building they had to be done.
However, once any of these is used (i.e I cast Yamato Gun Cannon) the whole system enters in cool down for a reasonable amount of time let's say 35 seconds.
This means that said Battlecruiser won't be able to cast any ability for that time. If you consider that, in original SC a battlecruiser won't be able to fire again for a very long time, (the time it takes to recharge enough energy up to 150) and considering the best case:
a Battlecruiser with full energy that has the Colossal Reactor upgrade has 250 energy, so after casting Yamato Gun it will have 100 energy, which is enough to activate it's defensive matrix, however since the whole system is in cooldown, it will have to wait 35 seconds to use it.
I think this is a lot better than having different types of Battlecruisers and depriving the ones that have the defensive matrix to use the yamato cannon and so on.
-550 Hp instead of 600, after all now all BC's will have the defensive matrix.

About each ability:
-Yamato Cannon
Only change this detail: since it's a massive beam of concentrated energy, make it deal splash damage in a very small area ONLY if it was cast to ground units, so if it's a very tightly pack of units, the one that received the blast would take the whole damage, the other ones in a very small radius would take 30%.
It won't deal splash damage when cast against air units.
-Missile Pods
If i'm not wrong this is an anti-air attack that damages an area, right?
if that's the case, then it's OK.
-Defensive Matrix
Ok, Science vessel's def. matrix but in the BC and can be self cast to vary...
sounds cool, but let's tweak it a little, how about instead of just absorbing 200 damage, make it 150 but, the shield itself takes 15% reduced damage from large armies, (which is in fact the opposite mechanic to the Inmortal's hardened shields)

EDIT
I hope at least Hero battlecruisers (Hyperion) have the three abilities (Yamato Cannon,Missile Barrage and Defensive Matrix) enabled by default.

[DemolitionSquid]

Isn't this the tempest-shield-like solution? Or, IIRC, more complicated than that?

I liked the Tempest because it niched the unit, and gave it a clear counter. The Carrier was just too good at everything. It would have still remained unbalanced, however, as long as it had variable levels of power based on Interceptor (Shuriken) count.

There are only two ways to truly balance the Carrier.

1. Make it more like the Reaver. That is, make Interceptors expendable. Give them a timed life. Make the Carrier constantly cycle through cheap Interceptors just like the Reaver cycles through cheap Scarabs. Each Interceptor gets X shots, then dies, like the D3 Raven summon. You can even make this this go unnoticed, because the Interceptors will die inside the Carrier at the end of their animation, to be replaced with a fresh Interceptor. Essentially, instead of spending 25 minerals per permanent Interceptor, you'll loose 5 minerals every X seconds of combat.


2. Fake it. By fake it, I mean make the Interceptors nothing more than an animation for the Carriers attack. Make them untargetable. In the same way the BC fires 8 lasers of 8 damage, make each Interceptor a single "laser" which deals damage. Make the Carrier exactly like every other unit.

[MattII]

I prefer #1, although I don't think the timed life should include the time when its in the Carrier (that's when the life will get reset). I suppose we could also do it by making the Interceptors much weaker (something like 20/20, and no armour/shield upgrades) so that they 'would' get destroyed much easier.