Should Warp-In have rally points?

[DemolitionSquid]

Warp-in is when you select a warpate, and then build a unit which will immediately (well actually like 3-4 seconds) warp in to anywhere that you clicked if it's in pylon power. It then operates on a cooldown before you can warp in a new unit.

I hear it chops off 10 seconds from the build times of all the gateway units (meaning the cooldown is 10 seconds shorter than the build times of gateways units) but I haven't seen any direct evidence of this so I don't know if it's true or not.

It's true. Zealots take 33 seconds to build from Gateways, but only 23 to cooldown from Warp-In. Personally I'm not a fan of this, it already has the advantage of being able to span anywhere, but the 10 seconds is there to give players a little leeway to gain some advantage from the mechanic, in case they miss the timing.

[pure.Wasted]

Tsk, you could have done a better job with the thread Archer. We've already built up the basis of this discussion in the Macro thread, pointing out a lot of interesting information that would have helped people reach a (better-) informed decision. Instead, you've provided no context for the question and are basically looking for some impulse decisions from people who don't know the ramifications of what they're being asked.

There's quite a few concerns to address before Warp-In can have rally points. One is that introducing rally points will remove two sources of Macro: manual rally and Warp Gate-Gateway switching.

With Rally, Warp Gates become objectively superior to Gateways. That means there's no incentive for pros to ever use the latter. That means they won't ever want to switch back and forth, which loses out on both 1) valuable decision making and 2) valuable macro clicks.

That means we have to make up for this macro elsewhere. Then, we have to come to terms with the fact that there is no longer a decision to make in regard to using a Warp Gate or a Gateway... and find some other place in Protoss gameplay to introduce more depth to the decision making process.


There is no other building in the game right now that can be upgraded to perform the same function better. Command Centers have two upgrades, yes, but you have to choose between the two. A Spire has one upgrade, yes, but it provides different benefits -- it doesn't give you better Mutalisks, it gives you completely different units that you might simply not need at all. Rally Warp Gate, on the other hand, gives you the exact same things as the Gateawy, except better. So, again, the focus is on the lack of decision making on the part of the player. Yes, the questions "Is it worth the cost? When exactly do I get it?" remain, but the CC has those questions too, along with "If I get X instead of Y, that means I can't get Y. Is this a non-financial cost I'm willing to pay?"

Now, if all of these concerns could be resolved through the inclusion of alternative DEEP, DECISION-MAKING mechanics that involve macro... then yes, I'd be for it. But that's a big if, and this is not a top priority at the moment.

And the funny thing is... this isn't the first time you've tried to dumb down macro for the benefit of the lowest common denominator, Archer. I'm sensing a pattern.

[unentschieden]

Macro apm ISN`T the reason Warp-in doesn´t have a Rallypoint. Warp-in doesn´t have a rallypoint because it wouldn´t make sense with the mechanic. In actuall gameplay it´s suggested that you use the Warpprisms Pylonfield to flank the enemy and minimise reinforcement times. Point being that the "rally point" would move anyway with each warp-in wave.Remember that units are especially vulnerable during the process. That is the same reason there aren´t queues with Warp-in.
The reduced production time is balanced against human error due to lack of queues and delays with setting up power (pylon not done yet, warpprism not deployable at current position for whatever reason...).

Warpgates currently switch as mercy option for new players that want to use warp in situationally but won´t/can´t deal with the Warp in process in "regular" gameplay. It would be a downgrade for these players if the Warp in upgrade irreversibly and instantly convertet all Gates.

That is also why Karune excused the "simple" PC mechanic by mentioning that it balances out with the comperativly complex warp-in mechanic. It´s "hard" to use because thats how it works, not by design. Would you want to set a rallypoint in WC3for the skeletons the Necromancers summon?

[Blazur]

No. Warp-in allows for faster unit production at the cost of automation. Allowing for rally points would remove any drawbacks.

Anyway, I'm sure many people in this thread have got to play StarCraft II at least once now.

*tear*

[ArcherofAiur]

Tsk, you could have done a better job with the thread Archer. We've already built up the basis of this discussion in the Macro thread, pointing out a lot of interesting information that would have helped people reach a (better-) informed decision. Instead, you've provided no context for the question and are basically looking for some impulse decisions from people who don't know the ramifications of what they're being asked.

Proper Polling Procedures. You dont want to bias your data.

[ArcherofAiur]

Tsk, you could have done a better job with the thread Archer. We've already built up the basis of this discussion in the Macro thread, pointing out a lot of interesting information that would have helped people reach a (better-) informed decision. Instead, you've provided no context for the question and are basically looking for some impulse decisions from people who don't know the ramifications of what they're being asked.

There's quite a few concerns to address before Warp-In can have rally points. One is that introducing rally points will remove two sources of Macro: manual rally and Warp Gate-Gateway switching.

With Rally, Warp Gates become objectively superior to Gateways. That means there's no incentive for pros to ever use the latter. That means they won't ever want to switch back and forth, which loses out on both 1) valuable decision making and 2) valuable macro clicks.

What valuable decisioni making? If were using the "perfect player scenarios" that we used for Proton Charge then players will always switch to Warpgates and never switch back.

There is no other building in the game right now that can be upgraded to perform the same function better. Command Centers have two upgrades, yes, but you have to choose between the two. A Spire has one upgrade, yes, but it provides different benefits -- it doesn't give you better Mutalisks, it gives you completely different units that you might simply not need at all. Rally Warp Gate, on the other hand, gives you the exact same things as the Gateawy, except better.

Im pretty sure the Lair is specifically better then the Hatchery (more hitpoints, upgrades). Besides even IF there were no other buildings that upgraded to a specifically better form that still doesnt mean you cant have a building that upgrades to a specifically better form. You guys love to invent these patterns and then draw crazy conclusions from them.

[Norfindel]

I'm not 100% sure. Probably Warp-in could be just an upgrade of normal Gateways, and still have the queue and the rally point. Some problems would arise in the situation that it isn't possible to use the destination anymore (for example: no power in destination), but nothing unsolvable. Still, the other races cannot just make low-tier units appear at the rally point, so this changes balance a little for the casual players.
I'm more on the yes side, so i will vote according to that.

[n00bonicPlague]

*tear*

*hugs* It's okay, man. *tear*

[Nicol Bolas]

The answer to this can be boiled down to a single question: will rally points help or hurt the player from effectively using Warp-In?

The implementation of any rally point mechanic is therefore key. Does each WarpGate have an individual rally point? Is the player properly informed when a rally point is lost (due to having Psi removed from the location)? How easy is it to produce a unit at a different location? How often does a player want to use the delocalized production that Warp-In provides?

You shouldn't build rally points into Warp-In until all of these questions can be satisfactorily answered. And some of these questions need serious testing to answer.

In short, if it needs it, it can be added later.

[newcomplex]

Thats like saying the point of Proton Charge is to make you click on the mineral field every 30 seconds.

It is.