Are Dragoons "Realistic?"

[Turalyon]

The story hadn't finished, and whether or not I am okay with that fact has no bearing on the fact that the story wasn't finished.

You keep saying that the story wasn't told without saying what or how it wasn't told. You're effectively saying that Sc1 had no story because it was incomplete, which has no basis in reality.

All I'm saying is that DW is one of those shows that got ruined by the modern obsession of stating the writer's beliefs/being jokey rather than telling a good story.

I wouldn't say "ruined" since it's always moving with and adapting to the times - it's the reason why it's lasted so long. Also, you can't really peg DW as one thing or another because it's all these things at different times. At it's core, it's a show about adventure and wonder and it still manages to capture this.

"Ending" as in an end to the current storylines, not "ending" as in the place where the writing stopped.

There was an end to the storyline - everyone got trashed and Kerrigan came out on top. The story was about Kerrigan's ascent and it was resolved when she got to the top. The writing didn't just stop midway through a build-up or climax. There was no cliffhanger. The future was made clear from that point such that it was unnecessary to continue the story further.

If the end of BW is a real ending, then Star Wars could have just stopped at the end of The Empire Strikes Back, according to your logic, and everything would have been fine. Or LOTR could have stopped at the Two Towers. Or any given novelist could stop their story 2/3 of the way through.

Hmmm. We clarified that Sc1 was not the first of a series nor that can we presume it at the time, so how can you then presume BW to be a second part of a series, or rather specifically a trilogy? Because there's now two entries, you can surmise it must end on a third one? Why not a fourth or tenth or a hundredth? How and where do you draw the line? I look at stories first as standalone - to literally see if it can stand alone. If this story happens to be a sequel, I can then see if there's justified continuance but I never take this above the story being able to standalone by itself. Unless it's telegraphed ubiquitously throughout the story, nowhere would I expect a story to be purposefully incomplete/needing another story to complete it which is what you're saying BW is and that's not just true. BW's story is very simple - it's about Kerrigan and how she goads everyone into a position of power - and it fulfills this to a tee. The consequences of which being more definitive and conclusive than even Sc1.

The true end of a story is where the tensions are resolved to some degree to the point where the conflict between protagonist and antagonist can no longer continue. The protagonist is the one who propels the story by having goals, and the antagonist is the one who gets in the way of those goals. So long as the protagonist has goals and the ability/will to try for them and the antagonist has reason to stop those goals and has the ability/will to try and stop them, then the story isn't really over. Yes, Starcraft has many protagonists and antagonists, but the fact of the matter is, all of them still have the ability to act, and given that the survival of the races is what's at stake, and the survival of all races is threatened, then there is no rational, logical way of calling BW an ending.

In BW, the main protagonist is Kerrigan because everything about BW swirls around and dovetails back to her (for good or ill). The antagonists just happen to be everyone else. The story of BW is complete.

It is an objective fact that at the end of BW Mengsk is driven by revenge and dominance, Raynor is driven by revenge, Kerrigan's rule over the Zerg is threatened by revenge/hybrids, the Protoss are on the brink of both internal and outer disaster, the hybrids are a massive wild card that can do anything, and we still don't know what Duran is capable of.

All these are tangential to the story that BW presents. The Protoss were hardly relevant to BW and could be ignored altogether except for being roflstomped further by Zerg that are supposed to be weaker than before. There purpose was only to strengthen Kerrigan. Mengsk, and Raynor can scheme and fume as much as they want - they can't really contest against Kerrigan. The Hybrids/Duran are a non-entity in their importance to the story that is BW as they are only relevent as a blatant and secret sequel hook which can be excised without one being none the wiser. Nothing short of artifice (which the Hybrids are - and purposefully inserted to bait a sequel since that is their only true role) can justify a continuance from BW that doesn't have Kerrigan just kill everyone before they can do anything against here.

Also, "I'd wager" is no basis for an objective argument.

Duh, I said that specifically because I wasn't stating that as an objective argument. I also said "pretty definite" which suggests I was making an opinion there.

Uh, technically speaking it should be thought of as both a stand alone and a part one. Yeah sure, some books have planned-in sequels, but many good one part stories are ripe for sequels.

Most sequels are really only necessary on an economic level. They're rarely necessary on a creative level since they thrive on nostalgia, familiarity and pandering to the base. Just because something was good the first time around, doesn't mean it will be a second time

Well, you have to bear in mind that in SC1 the Zerg were dominating the Protoss, not everybody.

If the greatest race that stands the best chance of fighting them are being dominated, it may just as well be "everybody".

That's really the inherent trouble with the Zerg as a race -- they are a reflection of whoever happens to be leading them at the time. As much as you say the Zerg are basically Kerrigan in BW, the Zerg are basically the Overmind in SC1, if you think about it.

Not quite. I don't see Kerrigan as a Zerg but a troubled human using the Zerg for her own ends. The Zerg lost their identity with the death of the Overmind, so they're nothing in BW except a plot device to be fought over and controlled.

Yeah sure, they're "active threats", but that doesn't mean that they're the be-all, end all. And the fact that people can even make a psi distruptor to take over the junior Overmind basically proves that the Zerg weren't all that.

You sure? Feral/unco-ordinated cerebrates are able to successfully lay siege and overcome a world that is teeming with the only weakness the Zerg ever knew (DTs) and yet can't be gotten rid of without a magical superweapon. Why couldn't just Dark Templar use tactics on these supposedly feral cerebrates to kill them? Z managed to do it on the Zerg staging world of Char without too much trouble. As to the Psi Disruptor, it should be unnecessary as the Zerg are supposed to be already unco-ordinated and weak, even with a baby Overmind but nope, need a super weapon for that, too.

She is not OP.

She is OP via author conceit. All her plans go off without a hitch and rely on people being stupid and doing nothing/having no contingencies against her. Why do they let her escape after she confesses and gloats to the Protoss after she murders Aldaris? Why is Mengsk lampshading the possibility of her treachery yet have no plans of his own and then be actually surprised later when she betrays him? That the Zerg are weak in their feral state only being hearsay didn't help either.

In the Zerg missions, Kerri gets Raynor, Fenix, and Mengsk to do her dirty work, uses psi emitters instead of her own abilities to gain more Zerg, and thus retakes a Korhal that was already previously weakened by the UED. She uses Zeratul to destroy the Overmind in the hands of a weakened UED. Her primary personal achievements are killing some scientists and killing her own allies, and killing some stray Protoss.

The Protoss are decimated on Shakuras following their narrow escape with a magic temple and she further brings ruin by destroying a power centre on their planet afterward and by mopping up the rescue force sent to retrieve their matriarch. It's such a blow that the Protoss can only show up in force right at the end. She beats the Protoss force that is eventually mustered against her - heaven knows how long it took for the Protoss to get that up and what it cost them to do so. The Protoss have lost their matriarch and have suffered a blow physically and to their morale. She is now in a greater position of strength than the Protoss since they can't regenerate like the Zerg.

She destroys the UED by using Mengsk's and Raynor and then killing all their forces as well after that. She has a distinct advantage over Mengsk's and Raynor's forces. She then eventually beats the remaining UED force that is bolstered by the captured neo-Overmind and its Zerg through pure force. The UED force is the strongest remaining force at the time. She then goes on to beat them even when 3-on-1.

Then of course, you have the fight at the end against the three allies she had previously weakened. That, to me, was her only real achievement. She fought long and hard...but remember where she fought. On Char. With homefield advantage, on a world the Zerg and no other race was adapted to, against weakened foes.

Most of her forces were still on Char. She was able to best the mightiest armies her enemies could throw at her at the time, with just a small force. That's OP.

[QUOTE=Nissa;207053]Lol, that's not fan enjoyment, that's troll enjoyment. Hey, if that's how you get your kicks. It's fine. I too don't care all that much about Star Wars, except as a reflection of the state of writing in general.

Schadenfreude was only a small part. I actually enjoyed the subversions taking place because it was something different and unexpected from a SW movie.

[Mislagnissa]

Depends on what one qualifies as "good". Most people tend to think WoL is the best story of Sc2 when it really has the most confused, meandering narrative and a weak plot that is driven by artifice when compared to the later two. There was obviously something that was satisfying/"good" in that story for people to judge it more favourably.

I am pretty sure that may be attributed to the way the minor characters are written. While Raynor and Mengsk are not particularly believable, everyone else is.

This implies that the story was written to have a resolution/no intent to have sequels.

It doesn't matter if SC1 was never intended to have sequels. It does now, they suffered sequelitis, a reboot is the cure. I have explained this many, many times already.

Why does the determinant plot not paying off somehow cancel the initial intent and motivation of going there in the first place? What's important about the determinant is not the objective thing (whatever shape it's supposed to take) itself, but the motivation it instills in the Overmind to take action/invade Terran space. Anyhow, the determinant plot never paying off should actually be a good thing since if it ever is achieved, then the Zerg will well and truly have no further motivation to focus their efforts on them.

Not true. The manual states that the zerg eradicate those species they have no use for and that they eat the biospheres of entire planets to fuel their war machine. They will never let humanity rest easy until every human is infested or dead and every habitable world has been stripped of biomass.

This brings me back to my back-in-the-day fanon theory of the Overmind not actually being killed on Aiur. I had thought the Overmind was not restricted being in one-body given that it was bodiless and what was actually destroyed in Sc1 and BW was just one (of many) large control node that allowed the Zerg to connect and communicate over vast interstellar distances in some huge network (with the Overmind being the network/cloud rather than some single entity contained in a body). My fanon reason for why it landed on Aiur was to act like a beacon to rally all the other Zerg that were spread out looking for Protoss or finding other races to assimilate to this point.

Great story, bro! (That is not sarcastic by the way. I am serious that this makes way more sense than canon. I have used similar ideas in my notes.)

It's hard for the Protoss to fight each other because in the current state we see them in, they've got the Khala (as a doctrine) and their adherence to it that stops such conflict.

The Khala is not a hive mind any more than tumblr is. The protoss can fight each other if they have sufficient reason.

Aldaris may be an antagonist but he's hardly an unambiguous villain. Part of why Sc1 is so often recognised as being "grey", is that the heroes or villains presented are anything but simply just that. The game actually gives no reason for us to doubt Aldaris' POV - he's fully justified in his convictions despite his manner.

I do not think his characterization was executed very well. I thought Syndrea from Insurrection was a lot more interesting in her execution, and not just because the voice acting was hammier in general.

[ragnarok]

It doesn't matter if SC1 was never intended to have sequels. It does now, they suffered sequelitis, a reboot is the cure. I have explained this many, many times already.

And I keep telling you while there were certainly problems with the whole prophecy problem it didn't make the whole SC2 storyline utter BS. Now if Blizzard changes their mind and does reboot the whole thing, that's fine too, but you're not going to change their minds for them

[Turalyon]

I am pretty sure that may be attributed to the way the minor characters are written. While Raynor and Mengsk are not particularly believable, everyone else is.

Eh, the characters themselves are pretty bland and cardboard archetypes: Swann, the dependable engineer guy; Stetmann, the silly mad scientist guy; Horner, the all-business, straight-arrow guy; Hansen the damsel in distress and Tosh, the cool dark (both physically and metaphorically) guy. I think what sold it was that, despite the cheesiness of a few, some of the cinematics did pack some quality drama in them. There were great one-shots but they were all kinda isolated and didn't cohere to an overriding narrative.

It doesn't matter if SC1 was never intended to have sequels. It does now, they suffered sequelitis, a reboot is the cure.

Nah, the cure is to just let it die. Just like Sc1 was never intended to have sequels and suffers sequelitis when a sequel is made, Sc1 doesn't really need a reboot either since it's adequate as it is. Rebootitis is starting to become a thing these days, too, you know.

Not true. The manual states that the zerg eradicate those species they have no use for and that they eat the biospheres of entire planets to fuel their war machine. They will never let humanity rest easy until every human is infested or dead and every habitable world has been stripped of biomass.

In terms of priority, that's low tier. The determinant is only important as a step to assist the Zerg assimilate the Protoss (it's current and main goal). Once they have that, they won't bother wasting any more energy and time fighting the otherwise worthless and useless Terrans since they can now and rather go straight for the main prize, the Protoss, instead. Mind you, that's not to say they won't wipe them out later/eventually...

Great story, bro! (That is not sarcastic by the way. I am serious that this makes way more sense than canon. I have used similar ideas in my notes.)

Thanks. It was mainly motivated by my wanting the Zerg to stay the way they always are (since I thought they had the strongest identity as race compared to the others). It helps explain why it was done only when it discovered the location of Aiur and makes the choice of exposing itself seem less frivolous. I'm a little divided about the idea now though since the Zerg can't really change with Overmind still there since the race is largely complete and inert in terms of trying to develop them. Having it die does open the Zerg up to some new possibilities - like evolving on its own without a single overriding will. This is what my idea of what BW should've been more about - how the Zerg adapt with the loss of the Overmind and away from needing this connection (which will allow them to remain disconnected if the Zerg Overmind ever found its way back - yay for Zerg factions). You could have them justifiably fighting each other now without the Overmind and you could even still have Kerrigan there in a much diminished role, controlling her own circle of Zerg for her own ends. I remember kind of wishing that the threat that Kerrigan was musing over at the end of BW, was perhaps the idea of the Overmind Zerg finding its way back because of the beacon idea I mentioned did succeed in calling the extended Zerg Swarm despite its short-lived connection to the network.

The Khala is not a hive mind any more than tumblr is. The protoss can fight each other if they have sufficient reason.

I said it's difficult for them not impossible. The Aeon of Strife was started because they could choose to go away from the Psi-link. The Protoss can still choose to opt out of the Khala, but they do so at the risk and knowledge of potentially inciting another Aeon of Strife. This informs their sense of community but also their general stubbornness, resistance to change and religious-like adherence to the Khala. It's because they willingly choose to be part of the Khala for fear of the alternative leading to another Aeon of Strife that makes it hard to justify Protoss vs Protoss unless it's against DT - those who choose to be outside and are the embodiment of those that started the Aeon of Strife.

I do not think his characterization was executed very well.

To each their own. His character is supposed to be the unlikeable arsehole (which is harder to pull off effectively than the likeable arsehole) but he is understandable in his motivation and actions. Better yet, he even undergoes some character development at the end of Sc1 where he is genuinely contrite after being shown the error of his ways. Let's not talk about how he is in BW though....

[Mislagnissa]

And I keep telling you while there were certainly problems with the whole prophecy problem it didn't make the whole SC2 storyline utter BS. Now if Blizzard changes their mind and does reboot the whole thing, that's fine too, but you're not going to change their minds for them

Pretty much everyone who thinks it over agrees the SC2 story is terrible, even people who otherwise like the game and do not compare it to SC1. It is full of plot holes, cliches, idiot plots, and general bad writing.

If Starcraft 3 does happen, the amount of retcons Blizzard makes to it would be so great that it might as well be a reboot. Just look at what they did to Warcraft: it started out as orcs from another planet invading the human kingdom, and now the most recent entry is about Satan and Lucifier's fleet of death stars fighting Galactus and Hellstar Remina. I wish I was joking, but that is an accurate summation of modern Warcraft lore.

I seriously doubt the UED will be the main antagonist of SC3, and even if they are I fully expect that they will be retconned into the pawns of another surviving xel'naga who is set up to be an even bigger threat than Amon ever was. Or, I don't know, everything will be yet again retconned so that the xel'naga were actually the pawns of an older race, fighting with demons, creations of the protoss/zerg rather than the other way around, or something else similarly absurd and unnecessary that pulls the IP even further from its roots.

Nah, the cure is to just let it die. Just like Sc1 was never intended to have sequels and suffers sequelitis when a sequel is made, Sc1 doesn't really need a reboot either since it's adequate as it is. Rebootitis is starting to become a thing these days, too, you know.

Not true. The Voltron reboot is awesome. It suffers some from being made for a general audience rather than an older audience, but it hearkens back to the halcyon days when animation could tell mature storylines.

[Nissa]

You keep saying that the story wasn't told without saying what or how it wasn't told. You're effectively saying that Sc1 had no story because it was incomplete, which has no basis in reality.

Holy crap, Tura, learn to read context! The only reason I brought up emotions is because you used an emotional statement of mine to support your false logic that my emotion proved that vanilla had a proper ending. This is a conversation, so the posts I put relate to one another. I'm not just saying random crap in every post!

I wouldn't say "ruined" since it's always moving with and adapting to the times - it's the reason why it's lasted so long. Also, you can't really peg DW as one thing or another because it's all these things at different times. At it's core, it's a show about adventure and wonder and it still manages to capture this.

Theoretically, this is true. However, the writing has really gotten bad of late, and the misandry of the show is a real turn-off.

There was an end to the storyline - everyone got trashed and Kerrigan came out on top. The story was about Kerrigan's ascent and it was resolved when she got to the top. The writing didn't just stop midway through a build-up or climax. There was no cliffhanger. The future was made clear from that point such that it was unnecessary to continue the story further.

No cliffhanger? The Protoss factions being in turmoil isn't a cliffhanger? Kerrigan destroying the UED expedition force, and thus provoking Earth isn't a cliffhanger? Mengsk and Raynor swearing revenge isn't a cliffhanger? The HYBRIDS aren't a cliffhanger?

I can't really continue this discussion if you are this disconnected to reality.

[ragnarok]

Pretty much everyone who thinks it over agrees the SC2 story is terrible, even people who otherwise like the game and do not compare it to SC1. It is full of plot holes, cliches, idiot plots, and general bad writing.

If Starcraft 3 does happen, the amount of retcons Blizzard makes to it would be so great that it might as well be a reboot. Just look at what they did to Warcraft: it started out as orcs from another planet invading the human kingdom, and now the most recent entry is about Satan and Lucifier's fleet of death stars fighting Galactus and Hellstar Remina. I wish I was joking, but that is an accurate summation of modern Warcraft lore.

I seriously doubt the UED will be the main antagonist of SC3, and even if they are I fully expect that they will be retconned into the pawns of another surviving xel'naga who is set up to be an even bigger threat than Amon ever was. Or, I don't know, everything will be yet again retconned so that the xel'naga were actually the pawns of an older race, fighting with demons, creations of the protoss/zerg rather than the other way around, or something else similarly absurd and unnecessary that pulls the IP even further from its roots.

For the die hard fans you can argue that, for those who didn't invest so much in it, I agree they'd say there's plot hole problems, but they won't be so extreme. As for what you said about WC, I wouldn't know because I never got into that universe.

[Turalyon]

Holy crap, Tura, learn to read context! The only reason I brought up emotions is because you used an emotional statement of mine to support your false logic that my emotion proved that vanilla had a proper ending. This is a conversation, so the posts I put relate to one another. I'm not just saying random crap in every post!

Ok then, where is your non-emotional statement/evidence that supports your position that the story is not complete/not have a proper ending? I've already stated my position without using emotion to say that the story has a proper ending, whereas you've yet to do the same. The only thing you've mentioned in support of the notion that Sc1 doesn't have a proper ending is because stuff/the characters can still go on and that there are sequel hooks, which don't really have a bearing because they're not necessary to comprehend/understand the story that has already been laid out for us.

However, the writing has really gotten bad of late, and the misandry of the show is a real turn-off.

You speaking of the recent/Capaldi's era here? I dunno, DW's writing is generally all-over the place (just look at the originals) because the stories are often written by different people/anthological in nature but I didn't mind the recent era because the actor behind the 12th (or 13th if you want to get picky about the lore) had a lot more skill and gravitas to carry it than the previous one (Smith) - who was admittedly a good doctor but was straddled with stories that didn't really stretch the actor or were embroiled with plot shenanigans/plots being "too clever and a half".

No cliffhanger?

Yes, in relation to the story that BW was telling. It's not left hanging that Kerrigan's ascension is questionable or doubtable. You're taking my statement of having no cliffhanger out of its context.

The Protoss factions being in turmoil isn't a cliffhanger?

Nope. They were hardly present (as in their presence wasn't necessary or their story could be excised altogether) in the story of BW and weren't really relevant beyond being a stepping stone for Kerrigan's ascension. BW ends with them being massively weakened even more than before Sc1, so their future is grim at best since Kerrigan is going to make sure she'll never let anyone oppose her again. Due to how curbstomped they are throughout BW, there's no suspense about the possibility of Protoss surviving (beyond plot artifice to save them) because they are doomed.

Kerrigan destroying the UED expedition force, and thus provoking Earth isn't a cliffhanger?

Nope, the UED presence was completely wiped out leaving no-one to contact Earth about its demise. It says so in the epilogue text. This is one of the bad things about the UED implementation in the story. Unlike the Zerg who made an impact despite their defeat in Sc1, the UED leave no legacy of their passing after BW concludes. The one thing of note they did do is erased (dethroning Mengsk) because Sc2 makes Mengsk emperor again and the Dominion is unscathed like it was before the UED came. It's as if we can ignore or forget the UED ever existed really.

Mengsk and Raynor swearing revenge isn't a cliffhanger?

Only to ultimately die horribly at Kerrigans hands if they ever tried most likely (unless we have artifice to save the day - or rather an artifact to be precise). Not much of a cliffhanger.

The HYBRIDS aren't a cliffhanger?

They are a secret that is only known right near the end if at all and don't really count as being part of the story that BW tells (which is about Kerrigan's ascension) nor does it have any bearing on the story it tells either. They're just there as a blatant sequel hook/ excuse for a sequel.

[sandwich_bird]

Technically speaking, if you go by the definition of cliffhanger which is how Tura wants to approach it, the only real sort of cliffhanger there is in BW is that last sentence in the epilogue talking about Kerrigan feeling "something" and how she'll eventually resume the war. In all honesty, it's hardly one. So I guess I'd agree that there is no real cliffhanger but there are definitely many points of interest that could warrant a sequel or a spin-off such as the one mentioned by Nissa. Whether you believe that they're enough to make another game well that's completely subjective.


I'm not sure I like these ideas that the story must be told in specific ways or with specific types of endings. It doesn't matter as long as it's generally entertaining. Unless we want to start talking about maximizing entertainment for a target audience...

[Mislagnissa]

I agree with Tura that the sequels were generally unnecessary since the original clearly was not written with sequels in mind. A sequel hook was present, but the narrative was effectively over with and any sequels would be inferior since the story ended with the destruction of a potentially universe-ending villain.

That is why I advocate for a reboot of the story that returns to the roots of the franchise as a three-sided battle royal. Instead of bland fights between good and evil for the fate of the universe every single week, focus on the morally ambiguous motivations of the factions and how this organically brings them into conflict. The zerg invade as part of their plan, the protoss try to stop them, the terrans are caught in the middle, consciences are tested, allies and enemies are made, and the story is an anthology series about the commanders that organize the battles against a backdrop of interstellar war.

Writing is not rocket science.