Are Dragoons "Realistic?"

[Mislagnissa]

Which is what happened in the game.

That still makes the protoss look like idiots for not realizing that treating intelligent beings like property might be a bad idea long before they made that mistake.

Copying a person and having it really be "you" requires 100% quantum fidelity. The protoss have not achieved this.

A wonderful philosophical debate, but would people really care in practice? If my family died and I was offered a perfect replication, I would not care about quantum fidelity and neither would the clones. I take what I can get.

The concept of death would have no meaning/weight if that's how it actually worked, which would be dumb. Personally, I'm kinda glad they retconned that (or at least pulled back on it).

That would not take the meaning out of death. If it did then nobody would enjoy cyberpunk fiction. A society where the afterlife was a real thing and the dead could be revived would be a fascinating thing to explore. It also makes the protoss less like the funny-looking humans they are now. I expect them to not be funny-looking humans and that the writers actually think about how having a forced empathy network and other amazing technology would affect their behavior.

All we know is that they were viewed as tools and not afforded the same respect as Templar, which they didn't like so they began a robot uprising. And then the Conclave said "ok, this won't work, shut down the program." Frankly, the Conclave didn't seem to treat the Templar much better. Judicators are arrogant, which causes them to do stupid shit, but that's kind of the whole point.

The judicators are way too stupid to make sense. I would expect that behavior from USA politicians because humans are not connected to an empathy network, but if the judicators are connected to an empathy network which forms the foundation of their civilization, their constant obvious stupidity really should not happen. The writing contrives to make them look like bumbling morons rather than giving them any nuance or believable justification.

It's going to be a boring remake of SC1 you've got where nothing bad ever happens because everyone is hyper-intelligent. <_<

I am not demanding that the protoss be hyper-intelligent. I only only expect them to be at least as smart as the audience.

Literally though, you can't fathom a scenario where smart leaders make bad decisions because they're detached from events and out-of-touch? Really?

Because the Khala exists and it is the foundation of their civilization. The entire point of having the damn thing is to make them distinct in psychology and behavior from humans, such as their impossible world peace. If they are just humans playing a D&D LARP, then they should be replaced by actual humans. If the judicators have always acted like asshats who alienate everyone else, then the Khala's peace should never have been possible. Unless they are genuinely sympathetic to the plights and causes of the templar and khalai, the other castes would have revolted and killed them long ago. Considering that the Aeon of Strife supposedly lasted for millions of years or thousands of generations or whatever and peace was impossible until the Khala was instituted, I think it is safe to say that protoss feel emotions and hold grudges orders of magnitude more strongly than humans do and that they will not tolerate the same blatant idiocy in their politics that humans do.

Yeah I've seen that one, it's pretty messed up. A good episode, but not realistic. If I knew there was a clone of me being tortured out there somewhere, I'd never consent to be cloned and I'd do my best to rescue it. :P

Yet you accept the protoss are too damn stupid to realize the same thing?

No, those are not the only options. I can think of 10 more off the top of my head. -_-

Like what? And yes, it has to sound like something we the genre savvy audience would think sensible rather than the idiotic drivel that Blizzard shits out.

Obviously, it doesn't work that way. It's not even implied to work that way in the manual... If it did, the judicators wouldn't have attacked the rogues. The level of immersion in the khala seems to be up to the individual protoss (which is how the Sargas try to resist its effects).

The rogues were not part of the Khala, so the judicators did not feel their pain. Furthermore, the Sargas entry does not specifically imply the Khala has "immersion levels," only that they do something to resist its influence on them. We do not really receive an explanation, but I would think the Khala works like the Tumblr hive mind and the Sargas resist it by more strongly embracing their cultural heritage or something. Trying to reduce immersion in the Khala would definitely be considered a crime.

If it worked that way period, that would be dumb. Say goodbye to any PvP in the campaign. Just no.

The protoss are not the zerg. The protoss clearly have the ability to manipulate how the Khala works given how much they studied it and it is nowhere as strong as the Overmind, so you are blowing things out of proportion. Furthermore, Tassadar goes against your claim by surrendering because he feels the suffering of his enemies.

I don't know, why do you push your misinterpretations & fanon as fact all the time? It's annoying that I've always tried to put thought and lack of bias into my criticisms of Metzen, but you seem to think you're entitled to make up random unsupported fanon and use that as fuel for the fire when it inevitably clashes with canon.

Because canon really is that stupid.

Simple. It's because recreation and resurrection are not the same thing nor would it ever be considered as such. It's made clear that the entity that initially defines itself as Fenix in LotV is a recreation based on stored data, not a resurrection. Even if it weren't for the fact they were in robot bodies, you can still make a copy of someone down to the minutest physical and mental detail but no-one will ever agree it is the same thing as the original. The copy will always be a copy and therefore, somewhat lesser when compared to the original. Of course, if one didn't know the copy was a copy in the first place, all bets are off but since Protoss are aware they have the technology to make copies of each other using stored memories and data, they'd always consider copies/clones as not really being the original thing (or, in this case, a continuation/resurrection of the original being it represents). It also depends on whether mainstream Protoss consider their technology prowess as being able to literally recreate the soul with these copies. I somehow doubt that they do.

I am pretty sure the copy itself and everyone who interacts with it will contest this. A copy of a living person would be an identical twin. Honestly, it makes social, economic, military, etc sense to copy people as many times as needed. A brilliant scientist could be everywhere their services are required, while dead relatives could be replaced with perfect duplicates. Funerals would be happy celebrations since the deceased would exist forever within the Khala and return to fight in times of need. Society would be fascinatingly alien compared to our own. The dark side would be that such a society would have a horrifyingly casual attitude towards death, considering people expendable as long as copies exist elsewhere.

[Gradius]

Sorry, I still don’t buy your fan hypotheses. Start going off only what it says in the game/manual, and then your arguments might begin to make sense. Where is controlling immersion in the Khala “definitely a crime”? Obviously the Judicator don’t feel the same compassion as Tassadar. What if a doctor is treating a patient in severe pain? The doctor can’t tone back his pain levels he’s getting from the patient? This is stupid. And again, your ridiculous fanon would not allow for any PvP.

The protoss cannot create perfect duplicates. And even if they could only then is it "up for debate" whether it’s a “resurrection”. Everything in SC has been a copy.

Also, go replay LoTV because I don’t think you get the Purifier arc. The clones were not tortured, they were treated as tools/slaves who would continue doing what their source personalities did in life, and then shut down after the Conclave found out that wasn't going to work. Comparing this to the black mirror episode is nonsensical. Nothing like that happened.

Because canon really is that stupid.

So far all you’ve demonstrated is that you don’t understand canon. I say go back and play it again.

[Visions of Khas]

If my family died and I was offered a perfect replication, I would not care about quantum fidelity and neither would the clones. I take what I can get.

... Mm, yeah, I'm gonna be That Guy for a minute.

I lost my family when I was younger -- mom, dad, aunts and uncles and cousins. The whole shebang.

Do I want a replication of them? I can't say that I do. Because I know it wouldn't be them. You can replicate and simulate as much as you want, but the qualia of the originals' experience is gone, forever.

Ask yourself, how long would you keep your simulations around? What would be done with them once you grow beyond them? (And don't question that you won't -- we all grow beyond family to varying degrees.)

Imagine, using Star Trek technology, a transporter malfunction replicated, to the quark, your best friend. Is the replication your best friend too? Is he his own person? Should he be used as a simple backup by you or his family? Would you feel nothing if the original were lost? This is getting into some Ship of Theseus shit here.

Now imagine that transporter malfunction was actually engineered by you in anticipation of your friend dying. Was this to preserve your friend for his sake-- or was it just to make yourself feel better?

I know some of the things in Starcraft are a little silly, but I like to speculate how these stories played out. When considering the Purifiers, you see an abused and boring trope. I like to wonder how they got to this point. Remember, there are no new stories under the sun, its all about execution and how you arrive at your solutions.

[Mislagnissa]

Sorry, I still don’t buy your fan hypotheses. Start going off only what it says in the game/manual, and then your arguments might begin to make sense. Where is controlling immersion in the Khala “definitely a crime”? Obviously the Judicator don’t feel the same compassion as Tassadar. What if a doctor is treating a patient in severe pain? The doctor can’t tone back his pain levels he’s getting from the patient? This is stupid. And again, your ridiculous fanon would not allow for any PvP.

I cannot debate with you if you constantly misrepresent my argument.

The judicators are complete morons and Metzen contrived them as villains. Full stop. If I was writing fiction from their perspective, I could not justify them pulling the same shit they do in canon without writing them as literal retards. I can write sanctimonious, god knows I am sanctimonious myself, but I cannot write someone who is blatantly stupid and genre blind given my own education and experience with human psychology, politics and the world building of xenobiology.

If we want evil, stupid politicians, we already have humans. That their shtick. The entire shtick of the protoss is that their forced empathy network is supposed to get them past the problems humans face due to racism and sexism. It makes absolutely no sense that the judicators would act like the alt-right.

I actually tried to write a genocidal, arrogant judicator as a main character. Then the context kicked in. He did not exist in a vacuum: he had a childhood, family, peers, an empathy network that forced him to not be a racist sexist asshole or feel terrible embarrassment and guilt whenever he threw a tantrum. I wrote a character, not a caricature, so I ultimately founding myself sympathetic towards his views given that I had to devise all the justifications myself despite not sharing the same views.

I wrote his enemies with the same level of depth, so everyone was sympathetic and had reasonable justifications despite fighting each other. That is called good writing, and it is something that Blizzard seems incapable of. So I discount Blizzard fiction on principle.

The protoss cannot create perfect duplicates. And even if they could only then is it "up for debate" whether it’s a “resurrection”. Everything in SC has been a copy.

The canon is inconsistent garbage written by people who are somehow smart enough to understand C++ yet stupid enough not to understand basic concepts like good writing, cause and effect, critical thinking, blah blah blah.

I have read enough philosophical debates and cyberpunk fiction that I do not care about the philosophy and I do not expect people living it out to care. The Khala lets you speak with and resurrect the dead, as well as clone people who are still alive. This is not a matter of philosophy, this is a practical application of their technology which should render their society unrecognizable from our own. The protoss should be treating resurrection with the same (lack of) respect as we treat contraception and gay marriage.

Also, go replay LoTV because I don’t think you get the Purifier arc. The clones were not tortured, they were treated as tools/slaves who would continue doing what their source personalities did in life, and then shut down after the Conclave found out that wasn't going to work. Comparing this to the black mirror episode is nonsensical. Nothing like that happened.

Again, you completely misread everything I said. I said the purifier arc was garbage because it relies on everyone acting like idiots, and that Black Mirror had a much more sensible take on the same concept that did not require everyone to act like idiots.

So far all you’ve demonstrated is that you don’t understand canon. I say go back and play it again.

I refuse to play that garbage. It makes me physically ill.

There are so many contradictions in canon that I simply cannot take the franchise the least bit seriously. It is a clusterfuck of stupid from beginning to end.

I know some of the things in Starcraft are a little silly, but I like to speculate how these stories played out. When considering the Purifiers, you see an abused and boring trope. I like to wonder how they got to this point. Remember, there are no new stories under the sun, its all about execution and how you arrive at your solutions.

Starcraft has terrible execution. The narrative falls apart under even the most cursory examination. Cause and effect literally does not exist in Starcraft. Events never happen because of cause and effect, but because the author says so regardless of the circumstances or whether it contradicts past or future events. There is no logic anywhere.

Starcraft cannot maintain consistency for even the most basic and forgettable of details. One source says it is impossible to communicate with zerg, another says it is possible but painful, a third says it is trivially easy. One source says that modifying genetics destroys psionics, we get multiple examples that contradict. One source says that humans are incompatible with infestation, we get multiple examples that contradict. One source claims that xel'naga are omnipotent immortal space gods, we get many examples that contradict this.

Since Starcraft canon is literally irrational and the writers clearly don't give a damn about logic or believably, I can say whatever the heck I want about it and be true. I prefer to simply rely on logic, because logic is amazing.

[sandwich_bird]

The judicators are way too stupid to make sense. I would expect that behavior from USA politicians because humans are not connected to an empathy network, but if the judicators are connected to an empathy network which forms the foundation of their civilization, their constant obvious stupidity really should not happen. The writing contrives to make them look like bumbling morons rather than giving them any nuance or believable justification.

The wiki page states the following:

The depth of the link varied according to personal choice. Generally it was difficult to be fully immersed in a state of unity all the time. Members of the Templar and Judicator Castes immersed themselves deeply several times per day, along with many Khalai, "nourishing" themselves through the rich contact and emerging refreshed and invigorated.[3] The linkage provided by the Khala was not just mental, but emotional as well, and as a result, Khalai found it difficult (though not impossible) to hate one another.[18] The nectar of the plant alavash was often used to strengthen a protoss's connection to the Khala.[19]

So lore does state that Protoss can feel each others but also that this is not something that is happening at all time and it is also something that happens at different levels and can be controlled.

In any case, it's not because you know how a person feel that you can't hurt that person. If you want an example, since you watched Black Mirror, it's like that doctor that gets off on the pain of others. In the case of the judicators, it's just a question of traditions. They are so stuck in their belief system that even feeling the pain of others doesn't stop them from making decision that will result in more pain. I wouldn't necessarily call that stupidity. Different morale is more like it. They believe they are doing the right thing even if, by other standards, it is clearly wrong.

Regarding the purifiers, you seem to think that the copies are coming from the Khala but that is not the case as far as I know. From the wiki:

Khalai "entered" the Khala upon death but did not remain as complete or coherent entities.[3] Their last thoughts were automatically gained by protoss in close proximity to the deceased.[23] Rather, the Khala contained "resonances" of deceased Khalai, that remain long after the respective protoss's death.[24]

We can infer from this that the process to make a purifier/copy requires a living Protoss. The objective of the purifier program was not to create tech like in Altered Carbon where you digitize your mind and can upload it to new bodies or in the cloud or whatever. The objective was to create weapons. It is possible that, even if they could create Altered Carbon tech, they wouldn't use it simply because of the Khala religion. There's already a sort of after-life for this race and they pride themselves in their death through battle.. so it makes total sense that they wouldn't want such a technology.

The canon is inconsistent garbage written by people who are somehow smart enough to understand C++ yet stupid enough not to understand basic concepts like good writing, cause and effect, critical thinking, blah blah blah.

I prefer to simply rely on logic, because logic is amazing.

Nah dude, if you'd use logic, you'd know that it's a logical fallacy to claim that if someone is good at something "complex", then that person must be good at something that you claim is less complex. And anyways, Metzen doesn't code as far as I know which I guess would make him look even worse in your eyes since that would mean he's incompetent at his own claimed expertise.. But anyways, you get too emotional about this, relax.

[Gradius]

The judicators are complete morons and Metzen contrived them as villains. Full stop.

Not really considering they apologize to the player and join his side during the last SC mission.

If we want evil, stupid politicians, we already have humans. That their shtick.

No. You haven't demonstrated that at all and only came to this conclusion because you have erroneous assumptions about how the khala works. Prove that it works the way you say it does, or just quit talking about it.

I have read enough philosophical debates and cyberpunk fiction that I do not care about the philosophy and I do not expect people living it out to care. The Khala lets you speak with and resurrect the dead, as well as clone people who are still alive. This is not a matter of philosophy, this is a practical application of their technology which should render their society unrecognizable from our own. The protoss should be treating resurrection with the same (lack of) respect as we treat contraception and gay marriage.

You basically start every debate with a preconceived flawed notion of how things "should" be and get annoyed when that's not how it works in StarCraft. Go away.

Again, you completely misread everything I said. I said the purifier arc was garbage because it relies on everyone acting like idiots, and that Black Mirror had a much more sensible take on the same concept that did not require everyone to act like idiots.

Except you've utterly failed to demonstrate how given that your whole premise was based on some rampant bullshit about them literally resurrecting their dead. Like, what the hell are you even talking about? Did you actually play the game? The black mirror episode didn't make that much sense as we just established. Nobody is going to let one of their clones get tortured. <_<

I refuse to play that garbage. It makes me physically ill.

Yeah, well you need to. You seem to be confused on a lot of topics in canon. I don't know what it is, but your reading comprehension skills cannot be this bad.

Since Starcraft canon is literally irrational and the writers clearly don't give a damn about logic or believably, I can say whatever the heck I want about it and be true. I prefer to simply rely on logic, because logic is amazing.

You're delusional. If you applied even some basic logic we wouldn't be having these drawn-out debates. Most of your points just basically boil down to whiny nonsense:

Abusing AIs in black mirror makes sense and is the paragon of good writing.
Abusing AIs in StarCraft doesn't make sense and is the paragon of crap writing.

Great "logic". I'm really frickin' impressed. All you've proven is you're insanely biased.

The wiki page states the following:

So lore does state that Protoss can feel each others but also that this is not something that is happening at all time and it is also something that happens at different levels and can be controlled.

But Sandwich, Mags want to criticize the SC2 lore while simultaneously not taking the SC2 lore/retcons into account. Quoting facts from the wiki makes that kinda hard, don't you think? :P

[Visions of Khas]

Kinda wondering why Misla is a "fan" of Starcraft at all.

I feel like he wants a backdrop for his own fiction -- which isn't a bad thing. A genocidal judicator? What's this about?

[Mislagnissa]

The wiki page states the following:

The wiki is full of unlabeled retcons and other inconsistencies. The most consistent source we have is the original manual.

Also the statement about them being nourished and refreshed by the khala contradicts them being photosynthetic. Them being photosynthetic contradicts the statement that tribal bloodlines have different skin tones, as photosynthesis requires a specific color which varies according to the local light source.

Honestly, I think them being literally nourished by the psychic internet is far more interesting and evocative than unscientific photosynthesis. I have been having loads of fun imagining what Khala withdrawal is like.

See... I have been thinking about the nature of the khala, specifically the short range pack communication. I believe that during the nadir of the Aeon that the pack-range khala still existed, but the long-range khala did not. Khas reintroduced the long-range khala, which requires things like psi-link spires to allow inter-tribal communications. Yadda yadda. Anyway, the tal'darim do not have even this due to their consumption of sundrop. In fact, tal'darim need to continually consume sundrop or their khala sense will develop and this is a bad thing. See, the khala sense provided by the nerve cords is supposed to receive signals from other nearby protoss, so isolating a protoss will cause them to go insane due to sensory deprivation solitary confinement mumbo jumbo. The only way to prevent this is by consuming sundrop. Both the nerazim and tal'darim are actually practicing an unnatural culture rather than preserving the culture of their ancestors, leading to them acting much more like humans than protoss.

So lore does state that Protoss can feel each others but also that this is not something that is happening at all time and it is also something that happens at different levels and can be controlled.

Ignoring retcons, I would think this was implied when the original manual stated the protoss studied "meta-neural" sciences and turned off the proto-khala. That does not mean the Sargas use those methods (i.e. something like sundrop, not alavash), as there would most likely be laws against trying to break from the khala. Therefore, the Sargas might use some other means to protect their culture and I would be fascinated by an exploration of that.

In any case, it's not because you know how a person feel that you can't hurt that person. If you want an example, since you watched Black Mirror, it's like that doctor that gets off on the pain of others. In the case of the judicators, it's just a question of traditions. They are so stuck in their belief system that even feeling the pain of others doesn't stop them from making decision that will result in more pain. I wouldn't necessarily call that stupidity. Different morale is more like it. They believe they are doing the right thing even if, by other standards, it is clearly wrong.

You would not know that from playing Starcraft, since it does nothing to make the judicator sympathetic or believable. The narrative contrives to make them into caricatures. That is precisely the sort of stuff I wrote about when I tried to make the judicators look sympathetic and of at least average intelligence.

See, Episode 3 did nothing to make Aldaris' actions look remotely sane. When I had to explain their motivations and make their Nazi-esque pogrom look justifiable, I basically wrote that during the Aeon of Strife the protoss were so advanced and immoral that they used their god-like power to turn the hell of their ancient religions into reality. In hell, nobody could ever die or stop suffering even if their body was atomized. In my world, Aldaris thinks it is justified to commit genocide because he fears the nerazim will literally send his people to hell. While we the audience know his fears are unfounded concerning the nerazim, we now know that the ancient protoss were advanced enough to create hell itself and that the tal'darim would probably be happy to bring it back.

Regarding the purifiers, you seem to think that the copies are coming from the Khala but that is not the case as far as I know. From the wiki:

Again, canon is full of retcons and other inconsistencies. I have read a lot of cyberpunk and I can conclude that there is no logical reason why the protoss cannot use their technology to create an afterlife. They have advanced computers and easy neural interfaces, so there is no reason why they cannot regularly backup their personalities to iCloud and render death an inconvenience rather than a permanent end. In fact, they actually do that but misuse the technology.

We can infer from this that the process to make a purifier/copy requires a living Protoss. The objective of the purifier program was not to create tech like in Altered Carbon where you digitize your mind and can upload it to new bodies or in the cloud or whatever. The objective was to create weapons. It is possible that, even if they could create Altered Carbon tech, they wouldn't use it simply because of the Khala religion. There's already a sort of after-life for this race and they pride themselves in their death through battle.. so it makes total sense that they wouldn't want such a technology.

I find your rebuttal a weak justification of the status quo. Starcraft is bland, banal, cliche and unbelievable. I prefer to explore something new, interesting, thought-provoking and believable.

Nah dude, if you'd use logic, you'd know that it's a logical fallacy to claim that if someone is good at something "complex", then that person must be good at something that you claim is less complex. And anyways, Metzen doesn't code as far as I know which I guess would make him look even worse in your eyes since that would mean he's incompetent at his own claimed expertise.. But anyways, you get too emotional about this, relax.

Yes, I am terribly irrational.

[Gradius]

Also the statement about them being nourished and refreshed by the khala contradicts them being photosynthetic.

Again, how are your reading comprehension skills this bad? You really don't get that those two statements aren't talking about the same thing?

[Visions of Khas]

Immersing one's self in the khala may fulfill the same physiological needs as sleep. Maybe the meditative practice helps clear away adenosine, a natural byproduct of the brain's metabolism.