Starcraft reboot ideas discussion thread

[sandwich_bird]

Because of her, the Zerg have no higher aspirations. Even Abathur and Dehaka are short-sighted morons.

The Zerg's quest for perfection and their hunt for the determinant was the only reason for the three races to interact.

Abathur's only purpose is perfection...

Anyways, going back to Enumerate, apart from the fact that:

-it arbitrarily removes all kind of major plot point
-It's a dry fanon encyclopedia presented without any story to at least sell the product

It's also:

-Very restrictive because of how extensive it is
-In my opinion, a lot of the new stuff added isn't particularly good/interesting or has any reason to exist

For example, the scourge can now attack ground (which would be super OP) but must be attached to overlords(wtf?).

Or this

A heavily armoured Protoss with an armour three times as heavy as the Protoss that wears it, the Boros Warrior is a proud race of pole-armed warriors, being one of the first tribes that was not of Lenassa Origin to join the unity against the Zerg.

[...]

Talent: Great Curved Sword: Carrying massive weapons, these great curved swords are the size of the wielder itself. Capable of breaking enemies with the force and strength of body and mind, the Boros Warrior is able to imbue the Sword with enough kinetic energy to tear Neosteel like butter.

Yeah... I really don't want cliche heavy Protoss units like these. That's how you turn starcraft into a Saturday morning cartoon. I'm sure Samwise would love making shits like these though



(Overwatch fan art. Good drawing, leave it out of Starcraft..)

[Gradius]

I am only offended that so many people replied only to naysay.

Almost every reply has been naysaying based on trivialities like "Kerry is the main character", "I am too lazy to read a simple timeline" or "Do not bother writing fanfiction."

What the heck are you talking about? Who's naysaying? I'm pretty sure everyone likes it, we're just confused what you expect us to do with it since it's just going to be forgotten like it was 2 years ago and there is not yet a single actual story that was constructed with it...

This discussion has been terribly and pointlessly exhausting. If I hear about Kerry Sue one more time I will go ballistic! I am going to take a long break from this fandom.

It just sounds like you need a break from the internet. Go outside, lower your blood pressure, start meditating, etc. Not everyone is obligated to hate what you hate, which so far for you seems to be every StarCraft game.

[Turalyon]

Also, what the heck is "fanon"? Is that a synonym for fanfiction?

It's fanciful stuff you make up in your own head. It's also called "headcanon".

I want people to get interested in writing stories for what I consider the best iteration of Starcraft lore, tailor made for custom campaigns. Almost every reply has been naysaying based on trivialities like "Kerry is the main character", "I am too lazy to read a simple timeline" or "Do not bother writing fanfiction."

If you want to discuss the pros and cons of a particular fanon and are open to all opinions, I'm all for it (it's all we really have now anyway what with the state of Sc lore being not worth the time investing in anymore). Just don't expect people to agree with you all the time nor to do what you want of them.

Because of her, the Zerg have no higher aspirations.

This could also be because, like, you know, the Overmind dying and all...

The Zerg's quest for perfection and their hunt for the determinant was the only reason for the three races to interact. Now all the conflicts feel fake and forced. There's no way to salvage that, hence why I fell in love with Enumerate.

I get that you like how complete the Zerg are as a concept, prior to Kerrigan. That aspect of them is one of the reasons why Zerg are my favourite lorewise. However, I also understand that this is also what makes them a bit staid to write further and engaging stories about. It's partly why I said in that other thread that I felt having conflicting personalities of significant consequence within the Zerg as being counter-intuitive to what the Zerg are about. Instead of retconning the Zerg nature to having meaningful, human-like internal conflict all along, which would feel "unrealistic" on a Watsonian level, the only realistic way to introduce that is to mix it up with an actual human in their midst.

I have a greater appreciation of it now upon realising that the Zerg's initial quest and hunt for the determinant is, objectively, really nothing more but a pipe-dream. That the determinant (Kerrigan in this case) and the acquisition of it was what led to the Overminds eventual defeat is unexpected and subtle but a really nice subversion that fits tonally/thematically with the greyness and cynicism that is Starcraft. It's kinda grand that not even a lovecraftian, god-like entity with immense power at it disposal can escape being shat on from on high.

I have no idea what possessed you to reply to my thread given your clear and constant hostility.

Nissa, hostile? What about me? I think Nissa's accused me of this once, too!

Actually, I like the idea of the DTs having a "homeworld." Not so much as an Aiur analogue, but just something like a planetary waystation. Like, most of the DTs would be scattered among the stars or protecting Aiur (ala Zeratul's claims), but they would have a place for the older people to settle down, to construct more ships, and just generally to serve as a place of rest and learning between their travels.

Yeah, this is pretty much what I meant. Shakuras feels like just another Aiur but with a Dark Templar colour scheme rather than something a nomadic group of people would be expected to have.

[Nissa]

Yeah, this is pretty much what I meant. Shakuras feels like just another Aiur but with a Dark Templar colour scheme rather than something a nomadic group of people would be expected to have.

To be fair, Shakuras was never developed. I don't think it was portrayed like Aiur was, because it wasn't portrayed at all. For all we know, it's just a place with some Dark Templar and a temple. Nobody ever talks about cities, or living spaces, or whatever about it. SC2 aside, of course. Honestly, it makes sense if it was mostly empty, because then Zeratul would have less issue with DTs objecting to the presence of Khalai Protoss, and less to worry about with the Zerg following them.



Mags, I'd care more about your "hostile" label if you didn't completely misinterpret everything I and the others have been saying. "Disagree" and "hostile" are two different things. I'm not mad at you at all, though. It's just that I'd rather talk about the details of Enumerate with you rather than read ~100 pages of stuff I'm not convinced I need to care about. Tell me why I should care. Tell me about the kind of stories that the Enumerate universe can have. Talk about certain characters you want to create/develop more. Don't just point to a link and say, "Care about this stuff!"

[Turalyon]

To be fair, Shakuras was never developed. I don't think it was portrayed like Aiur was, because it wasn't portrayed at all. For all we know, it's just a place with some Dark Templar and a temple. Nobody ever talks about cities, or living spaces, or whatever about it. SC2 aside, of course. Honestly, it makes sense if it was mostly empty, because then Zeratul would have less issue with DTs objecting to the presence of Khalai Protoss, and less to worry about with the Zerg following them.

Eh, from what we get in the game only, no-one talks about cities or living spaces on Aiur either. We only know it's built up and densely populated because it's all in the backstory, we see several locations ingame and that it's labelled as the homeworld. Shakuras, too, is referred to as the DT's secret homeworld at least once, by Zeratul no less. The connotation, of the word "homeworld" suggests at least some form of significant established and permanent thing. Also, there's at least three major Shakuras landmarks mentioned in BW that sound like cities or imply a sense of permanance/established civilization: the populated area around the Xe'Naga Temple (which, strangely, is never given a name), New Antioch (which contains the seemingly significant structure "Executor's Citadel") and Talemetros (a power plant of sorts).

Finally, if they were true nomads and treated Shakuras as nothing more than a waystation, the DT wouldn't have bothered to go to the lengths they did in trying to rid that world of Zerg in the first place. I mean, they're nomads, the very definition of the word means they have no permanent home/ties to the place nor should they call/treat any one place as such.

Mags, I'd care more about your "hostile" label if you didn't completely misinterpret everything I and the others have been saying. "Disagree" and "hostile" are two different things. I'm not mad at you at all, though. It's just that I'd rather talk about the details of Enumerate with you rather than read ~100 pages of stuff I'm not convinced I need to care about. Tell me why I should care. Tell me about the kind of stories that the Enumerate universe can have. Talk about certain characters you want to create/develop more. Don't just point to a link and say, "Care about this stuff!"

Too late. He's "picked up his ball and gone home", I think. You're a meanie, Nissa.

[Nissa]

I like how the one chick disagreeing with him is the "meanie" and y'all aren't. Anyway, maybe I got too much on his case about writing. Writing is something I take very seriously, and he's all talking about something else when he could be creating something of his own? Puh-lease.

Eh, from what we get in the game only, no-one talks about cities or living spaces on Aiur either. We only know it's built up and densely populated because it's all in the backstory, we see several locations ingame and that it's labelled as the homeworld. Shakuras, too, is referred to as the DT's secret homeworld at least once, by Zeratul no less. The connotation, of the word "homeworld" suggests at least some form of significant established and permanent thing. Also, there's at least three major Shakuras landmarks mentioned in BW that sound like cities or imply a sense of permanance/established civilization: the populated area around the Xe'Naga Temple (which, strangely, is never given a name), New Antioch (which contains the seemingly significant structure "Executor's Citadel") and Talemetros (a power plant of sorts).

Finally, if they were true nomads and treated Shakuras as nothing more than a waystation, the DT wouldn't have bothered to go to the lengths they did in trying to rid that world of Zerg in the first place. I mean, they're nomads, the very definition of the word means they have no permanent home/ties to the place nor should they call/treat any one place as such.

I disagree. Even if Shakuras is a waystation, why wouldn't they want to protect it? I assume they set up there because they wanted to be reasonably close to Aiur (again, Zeratul's claims), and if it's a planet with a Xel'Naga temple, well, there's no replacing something like that. Just because you're a nomad doesn't mean that you're going to give up something. That's like expecting desert nomads to forego an oasis that's been occupied by their people for centuries.

Yes, while "homeworld" does connotate some form of permanence, there's no reason to assume that this means "lots of cities", "highways throughout the countryside", or "major industrial production centers." It means that they consider this world home. Even when us earthlings were lived in less technological times, Earth was still our homeworld. "Homeworld" is not a level of technology.

Of course, the angle at which it doesn't make sense is the fact that Aiur should still be the DT homeworld, because it was the world they first called home (much like how the K Sector Terrans should still be considering Earth the homeworld). The only excuse I can see for this is the Xel'Naga temple. Maybe the Xel'Naga being there makes it kinda homey, or something.

[Turalyon]

I like how the one chick disagreeing with him is the "meanie" and y'all aren't. Anyway, maybe I got too much on his case about writing. Writing is something I take very seriously, and he's all talking about something else when he could be creating something of his own? Puh-lease.

Relax, I was kidding. I disagreed with his interpretation of certain things as well and I called him out as being a bit entitled, too. He was a bit too serious though and often conflated his subjective bias as being objective.

I disagree. Even if Shakuras is a waystation, why wouldn't they want to protect it? I assume they set up there because they wanted to be reasonably close to Aiur (again, Zeratul's claims), and if it's a planet with a Xel'Naga temple, well, there's no replacing something like that. Just because you're a nomad doesn't mean that you're going to give up something. That's like expecting desert nomads to forego an oasis that's been occupied by their people for centuries.

I didn't say they wouldn't want to protect it but rather questioned the merits vs the lengths/costs/consequences they would have to endure in order to protect it. If things were looking bad, a space nomad wouldn't be so tied to one place that they'd sacrifice their well-being to keep staying there. They'd just pick up stakes and go elsewhere cos "home" is wherever you want it to be and the universe is huge...

It was plain to see in The Stand that Shakuras was going to hell in a Zerg handbasket and the solution involved devastating the planet and any inhabitants who couldn't make it inside the Temple after risking life and limb to get crystals guarded by some of the most dangerous adversaries around at the time. To protect this "waystation" to the extent they did is more than what I would expect from a group of supposed nomads.

Yes, while "homeworld" does connotate some form of permanence, there's no reason to assume that this means "lots of cities", "highways throughout the countryside", or "major industrial production centers." It means that they consider this world home. Even when us earthlings were lived in less technological times, Earth was still our homeworld. "Homeworld" is not a level of technology.

Yeah, but this doesn't disguise the fact that Shakuras has large establishments along that planet that would be considered cities or at least make it a a colony. They have an area that is designed to be a massive network of power plants (Talemetros). I wouldn't expect to see something like this on a "nomad waystation".

Also, since you've agreed that the use of the world "homeworld" infers some degree of permanance and that Zeratuls calls Shakuras their homeworld, this implies they're not nomads because a nomad has no permanent home nor stays in the same place for long.

Of course, the angle at which it doesn't make sense is the fact that Aiur should still be the DT homeworld, because it was the world they first called home (much like how the K Sector Terrans should still be considering Earth the homeworld). The only excuse I can see for this is the Xel'Naga temple. Maybe the Xel'Naga being there makes it kinda homey, or something.

Well, Zeratul still considers Aiur to be the homeworld of all Protoss (and the significance and meaning that comes with that) and does what he can to try and protect it even though he has not set foot on it in ages. I can understand his devotion to that - but for Shakuras? I don't get it either.

I wouldn't think that it'd be the Xel'Naga Temple keeping them there because the DT's are free-spirits and ancestors of those who gave rise to the Aeon of Strife - you know, those who yearned to be free and independent from controlling forces like the Xel'Naga (and subsequently the Protoss on Aiur who follow the Khala) their ancestors rebelled against. I can only imagine that as a waystation, Shakuras had some utility as a crossing/meeting point for DTs that passed through the area but not any kind of sentimental pull. Maybe.

[Nissa]

Relax, I was kidding. I disagreed with his interpretation of certain things as well and I called him out as being a bit entitled, too. He was a bit too serious though and often conflated his subjective bias as being objective.

I am relaxed. I'm not mad, just more "rolling my eyes" in tone. Yeah, I was basically telling him he was treating his opinion as objective, but ah...I'm fairly confident he wasn't reading more than 1/3 of anything I posted.

I didn't say they wouldn't want to protect it but rather questioned the merits vs the lengths/costs/consequences they would have to endure in order to protect it. If things were looking bad, a space nomad wouldn't be so tied to one place that they'd sacrifice their well-being to keep staying there. They'd just pick up stakes and go elsewhere cos "home" is wherever you want it to be and the universe is huge...

Again, Xel'Naga Temple. Honestly, I don't think the definition "nomad" hinges too much on having a like for a certain location. The Dark Templar are a collection of various people with various opinions, and just because they more or less agree on the Khala (that life shouldn't be strictly lived by it) doesn't mean they agree on other things. I don't necessarily see them wanting to defend Shakuras as a flaw or character deviation for them.

It was plain to see in The Stand that Shakuras was going to hell in a Zerg handbasket and the solution involved devastating the planet and any inhabitants who couldn't make it inside the Temple after risking life and limb to get crystals guarded by some of the most dangerous adversaries around at the time. To protect this "waystation" to the extent they did is more than what I would expect from a group of supposed nomads.

I guess, but it's not without reason. That, and I think it's kind of a plothole. It's pretty clear that Blizzard never intended that this temple would devastate the entire surface of Shakuras, because Raszagal was later kidnapped from Shakuras, and the pylon cluster indicates that not all Protoss technology was destroyed in the usage of the temple. It may be that while the effects of the temple impacted the whole planet (the cutscene), it didn't necessarily kill everyone on the planet who wasn't in the temple, provided they were a larger distance away. Perhaps pylons or other Protoss energies could protect settlements, hence why the pylon cluster survived.

Actually, I think the devastating effects of the temple prove Shakuras was closer to a waystation than otherwise. After all, if you're putting a planet at risk, wouldn't it be best if it were one with smaller populations/settlement?

Yeah, but this doesn't disguise the fact that Shakuras has large establishments along that planet that would be considered cities or at least make it a a colony. They have an area that is designed to be a massive network of power plants (Talemetros). I wouldn't expect to see something like this on a "nomad waystation".

The only thing we know from BW is that it has the power plants on Talemetros. We do not know that it has cities. It makes perfect sense for a DT planet to have a place where they can manufacture ships for long-distance travel. After all, these aren't African travelers in the Sahara, these are advanced beings going through the void of space, visiting planets over extreme distances which are very unlikely to be able to support any form of life. They need to be prepared, and that's going to involve the manufacture of more/better technology than a planetary nomad, who can either trade or work with wilderness to survive.

In other words, Protoss nomads need not be fully analogous to human ones.

Well, Zeratul still considers Aiur to be the homeworld of all Protoss (and the significance and meaning that comes with that) and does what he can to try and protect it even though he has not set foot on it in ages. I can understand his devotion to that - but for Shakuras? I don't get it either.

I wouldn't think that it'd be the Xel'Naga Temple keeping them there because the DT's are free-spirits and ancestors of those who gave rise to the Aeon of Strife - you know, those who yearned to be free and independent from controlling forces like the Xel'Naga (and subsequently the Protoss on Aiur who follow the Khala) their ancestors rebelled against. I can only imagine that as a waystation, Shakuras had some utility as a crossing/meeting point for DTs that passed through the area but not any kind of sentimental pull. Maybe.

Again, Xel'Naga temple. That has both sentimental and scientific value. It may be possible that Shakuras was once a settlement for the Xel'Naga, and the DT want to understand that.

One of my problems with SC2/its novels was that it didn't really make clear the relationship between the DTs and how they felt about the Xel'Naga. I've always imagined that the DTs were always mildly suspicious of the XN, because the XN passed down Khalai tradition. But then came the SC2 retcons, which plastered over old canon and ignored this issue. Pffft.

[Turalyon]

Honestly, I don't think the definition "nomad" hinges too much on having a like for a certain location. The Dark Templar are a collection of various people with various opinions, and just because they more or less agree on the Khala (that life shouldn't be strictly lived by it) doesn't mean they agree on other things. I don't necessarily see them wanting to defend Shakuras as a flaw or character deviation for them.

Never said that being nomad would mean they can't have a preference for "things" or doing so would be a flaw/character deviation. Just that it's odd and doesn't meet up with the inferred expectation of how the DT were based on their background (as being nomads and all).

I guess, but it's not without reason. That, and I think it's kind of a plothole. It's pretty clear that Blizzard never intended that this temple would devastate the entire surface of Shakuras, because Raszagal was later kidnapped from Shakuras, and the pylon cluster indicates that not all Protoss technology was destroyed in the usage of the temple. It may be that while the effects of the temple impacted the whole planet (the cutscene), it didn't necessarily kill everyone on the planet who wasn't in the temple, provided they were a larger distance away. Perhaps pylons or other Protoss energies could protect settlements, hence why the pylon cluster survived.

I kinda figured the effect was like a neutron bomb - minimal damage to structures (relative and compared to a normal bomb) but maximum damage to living organisms. As to the effect having to be world-wide, well, I would of thought it'd have to be given the Zerg are so OP that even any remaining trace of them would just mean they'd grow back and become an issue again.

Maybe the bomb was limited to Zerg, as it was with the artifacts in Sc2, but we're led to believe that it affects Protoss because they wouldn't have urged to seek shelter within the Temple before setting it off. Maybe they just don't know it only and conveniently affects Zerg. You never know with magic "I win" button plot devices.

Actually, I think the devastating effects of the temple prove Shakuras was closer to a waystation than otherwise. After all, if you're putting a planet at risk, wouldn't it be best if it were one with smaller populations/settlement?

Again, Xel'Naga temple. That has both sentimental and scientific value. It may be possible that Shakuras was once a settlement for the Xel'Naga, and the DT want to understand that.

I'll grant you that. Still, the amount of effort used and life lost just to protect a waystation/something of relatively minor sentimental value (as opposed to a bonafide homeworld) seems a bit askew to justify if they are indeed supposed to be "nomads". They had to go on a wild-goose chase with their sworn enemy in order to protect it afterall!

The only thing we know from BW is that it has the power plants on Talemetros. We do not know that it has cities. It makes perfect sense for a DT planet to have a place where they can manufacture ships for long-distance travel.

The definition of "city" is somewhat nebulous in this regard and whether having such a thing is a minimal requirement/the metric for it to be labelled a "homeworld" is minutiae. What's important is that the presence of a power-plant, manufacturing centres, citadels etc denotes a consistent, well-developed and permanent presence on the planet at all times. This is what is at odds with what one would expect from "space nomads" (the Quarians of Mass Effect are a good comparison).

Keep in mind, that I don't have a problem with the DTs actually having a homeworld per se or that they eventually decided to change their mind and made Shakuras into a homeworld. I'm just making a point that it seems a bit odd (not wrong or unfeasible etc) for them to have a homeworld when they're supposedly nomads.

One of my problems with SC2/its novels was that it didn't really make clear the relationship between the DTs and how they felt about the Xel'Naga. I've always imagined that the DTs were always mildly suspicious of the XN, because the XN passed down Khalai tradition. But then came the SC2 retcons, which plastered over old canon and ignored this issue. Pffft.

My fanon is that they have inherent distrust of the Xel'Naga because of what you said about them being representative and somewhat, the instigator of what became the institution that exiled them in the first place. Afterall, the DTs are essentially the ancestors of the Protoss who incited the Aeon of Strife and, in some regard, who wished to cling onto the independence and ego driven freedom they had enjoyed (despite the risk and harm such thinking did during that time) after the AoS ended.

[Nissa]

Never said that being nomad would mean they can't have a preference for "things" or doing so would be a flaw/character deviation. Just that it's odd and doesn't meet up with the inferred expectation of how the DT were based on their background (as being nomads and all).

Honestly, I don't see the contradiction. Even nomads have settlements they hang onto. These settlements might change after a while, but they won't, generally, because it's a lot of work t move the very young and the very old.

I kinda figured the effect was like a neutron bomb - minimal damage to structures (relative and compared to a normal bomb) but maximum damage to living organisms. As to the effect having to be world-wide, well, I would of thought it'd have to be given the Zerg are so OP that even any remaining trace of them would just mean they'd grow back and become an issue again.

Maybe the bomb was limited to Zerg, as it was with the artifacts in Sc2, but we're led to believe that it affects Protoss because they wouldn't have urged to seek shelter within the Temple before setting it off. Maybe they just don't know it only and conveniently affects Zerg. You never know with magic "I win" button plot devices.

Yeah, that's the problem with how the temple was portrayed. I like to imagine that the temple has more going on for it then just being a giant weapon, but it was really used as a magic, get-out-of-plot-trouble device.

I'll grant you that. Still, the amount of effort used and life lost just to protect a waystation/something of relatively minor sentimental value (as opposed to a bonafide homeworld) seems a bit askew to justify if they are indeed supposed to be "nomads". They had to go on a wild-goose chase with their sworn enemy in order to protect it afterall!

"Relatively minor sentimental value"? You're talking about a temple that is a part of Protoss history, that could potentially help them understand their past, their creators, and, potentially, the Zerg. After all, because the Xel'Naga created the Zerg too, learning about them automatically counts as learning about the enemy. Even if that wasn't the case, this is an important artifact. It's more than just an old, ruined castle in the moor, it's a key to the Protoss understanding themselves. They aren't abandoning nomadism to stay there. They've reached a goal of nomadism: to find something worth staying for.

The definition of "city" is somewhat nebulous in this regard and whether having such a thing is a minimal requirement/the metric for it to be labelled a "homeworld" is minutiae. What's important is that the presence of a power-plant, manufacturing centres, citadels etc denotes a consistent, well-developed and permanent presence on the planet at all times. This is what is at odds with what one would expect from "space nomads" (the Quarians of Mass Effect are a good comparison).

Keep in mind, that I don't have a problem with the DTs actually having a homeworld per se or that they eventually decided to change their mind and made Shakuras into a homeworld. I'm just making a point that it seems a bit odd (not wrong or unfeasible etc) for them to have a homeworld when they're supposedly nomads.

Was it really all that odd? I personally don't think so. If Zeratul has continually been protecting Aiur, then clearly Shakuras as a base of operations makes sense.

My fanon is that they have inherent distrust of the Xel'Naga because of what you said about them being representative and somewhat, the instigator of what became the institution that exiled them in the first place. Afterall, the DTs are essentially the ancestors of the Protoss who incited the Aeon of Strife and, in some regard, who wished to cling onto the independence and ego driven freedom they had enjoyed (despite the risk and harm such thinking did during that time) after the AoS ended.

Yeah, that's more or less what I assumed. Blizzard...*sigh*. Don't ever read the "Dark Templar" trilogy. Besides only having only two DTs with any lines, it refused to go into any detail about what the Khala really is (other than a crystal that does a thing to the brain). It doesn't explain why the tribes were organized the way they were, whether or not the Conclave is actual Khala teaching or an idea somebody got in their heads (hence the basis for logical DT distrust), why the DTs rebelled (it has no DT character explaining -- just "Adun heard them and thought they had a point"), why the DTs felt the need to go to the degree of maiming themselves, and how the Khalai and DT have been interacting over time. It's supposed to be backstory, but ends up only outlining the things we already know, in the dumbest way possible.