Starcraft reboot ideas discussion thread

[ragnarok]

Soooo... what you want is a lapdog to say how good your premise is and shower you with praise so you can bask in it?

Besides, it's clear there's no point discussing the premise because you've got it all figured out in your head and won't brook anyone poking at it. Even if this forum wasn't deader than dead, I'd doubt anyone would (or daresay, even want to) say anything more meaningful to you than "it look's ok/good/fine, I guess". You're only writing this to appease yourself really, so it baffles me why you persist on trying to foist this on other people and insist that others agree with you/share your opinion.

*Points to the narcissism concept*

[Mislagnissa]

I’d prefer to wait until my threads are merged before continuing this discussion, but I’m in no mood to wait.

Years ago? You joined back in July 2017, that's less than 2 years ago from right now. Also, what you said here only shows your inflexibility:

You just said it right here in the thread that you won't tolerate anyone questioning the spirit of the premise, which means you can't stand your idea being wrong in any way. I told you that you're NOT going to succeed in satisfying everyone, and by saying you won't tolerate such questioning, you're basically saying you cannot be proven wrong about anything, which isn't the case.

Do you realize how hypocritical you sound right now? All of that applies to you just as much, maybe more so. You can’t stand the idea that you might be wrong, otherwise you wouldn’t constantly ruin my threads with pointless circular arguments.

I’ve acknowledged my wrongness before. I’ve changed my ideas in response to suggestions and feedback. You’ve never changed your mind in my experience, but then again I have no idea what your ideas even are beyond the vaguest sense.

What? Do you want me to shower you with praise? Tell you how awesome and smart you are for wishing Amon had a backstory that wasn’t completely stupid? That’s not praise worthy, that’s basic standards of taste.

This isn’t a debate. We’re discussing fiction. There’s no right or wrong here. This is a matter of taste. Opinion.

I’ve already told you in excruciating detail why I think you have your work cut out for you. I don’t believe canon is salvageable, but you’re welcome to try. Go write your bazillion word proposal for fixing the plot holes in SC2. Until then, I’m not interested in constantly rebutting the same unchanging talking points. I’m not interested in arguing in circles.

Go out and construct something!

Soooo... what you want is a lapdog to say how good your premise is and shower you with praise so you can bask in it?

Besides, it's clear there's no point discussing the premise because you've got it all figured out in your head and won't brook anyone poking at it. Even if this forum wasn't deader than dead, I'd doubt anyone would (or daresay, even want to) say anything more meaningful to you than "it look's ok/good/fine, I guess". You're only writing this to appease yourself really, so it baffles me why you persist on trying to foist this on other people and insist that others agree with you/share your opinion.

I never wanted praise. If you think that, then you have completely misunderstood everything I ever posted. I said “these are the premises; what do you think could happen?” I wanted to see what ideas other people could come up with if Starcraft wasn’t effing garbage. I wanted to see whether others could offer helpful suggestions that I could incorporate into my own forays. That’s consistently failed to happen.

Instead, you’ve constantly told me “the determinant is a red herring” and nothing else. Much like Rag, talking with you is like listening to a broken record.

You’ve already pointed out any flaws and I’ve already devised repairs. Months ago.

What exactly did you think I would do after you kept saying “determinant = red herring” a bazillion times already? How exactly is that remotely constructive? What are you trying to accomplish?

Do you want me to shower you with praise for your clever deduction? I’ve already done that the first bazillion times. I’ve told you repeatedly “yeah, sure, that’s clever and all.” It’s a macguffin, I get it.

I’m not interested in constantly hearing you say the same thing over and over and over. It’s not helpful. I can’t do anything with that.

If you want me to engage with your ideas, then go and write something I can actually work with. Constantly criticizing me for using a well established trope isn’t helpful.

Go out and construct something!







But if either of you want to have productive conversation with me, you’re not going to get it by constantly tearing down my ideas and calling me wrong over and over. Please offer helpful and constructive ideas or refrain from replying at all. Don’t present your arbitrary opinions as some kind of objective fact. You’re entitled to your opinion. I’m entitled to mine.

You want a story about SC2 or a red herring? Then I would kindly appreciate if you stop trying to force me to write your story for you. I want to write my story, not yours. Go write your story with your hands! Go go go!

When you’re willing to discuss my suggestions, and not constantly derail my threads into arguments about how your arbitrary opinions are superior, then I’ll be waiting.

Sorry if I come off as abrasive. I’m a shitty stressed out little asshole and I just learned that Chrome is going to disable ad blockers. I’m so screwed.

[ragnarok]

I’d prefer to wait until my threads are merged before continuing this discussion, but I’m in no mood to wait.


Do you realize how hypocritical you sound right now? All of that applies to you just as much, maybe more so. You can’t stand the idea that you might be wrong, otherwise you wouldn’t constantly ruin my threads with pointless circular arguments.

I’ve acknowledged my wrongness before. I’ve changed my ideas in response to suggestions and feedback. You’ve never changed your mind in my experience, but then again I have no idea what your ideas even are beyond the vaguest sense.

What? Do you want me to shower you with praise? Tell you how awesome and smart you are for wishing Amon had a backstory that wasn’t completely stupid? That’s not praise worthy, that’s basic standards of taste.

This isn’t a debate. We’re discussing fiction. There’s no right or wrong here. This is a matter of taste. Opinion.

I’ve already told you in excruciating detail why I think you have your work cut out for you. I don’t believe canon is salvageable, but you’re welcome to try. Go write your bazillion word proposal for fixing the plot holes in SC2. Until then, I’m not interested in constantly rebutting the same unchanging talking points. I’m not interested in arguing in circles.

Go out and construct something!

Considering that you don't want to hear other people's POVs, I'd say that can be interpreted as you saying that others don't know what they're talking about, so their opinion is irrelevant and therefore utter BS. Also, since you just said there's no right or wrong here, you can then explain how you once said how the only "success" the SC2 storyline had was that it failed EVERYTHING. But if there's no right or wrong, then that shouldn't apply. I keep telling you not everyone just outright rejected the SC2 lore. You going to accuse them as utter psychos and don't know what they're talking about either?

[Turalyon]

But there's nothing really else to talk about though (beyond saying "good work") since you've already outlined what you intended with the premise. No-one's engaging with you because they can't think of anything else to add and they don't have the motivation to do so/behind it like you.

All we can offer is pointless speculation based off your premise - which would understandably be rooted in what everyone else knows about what Starcraft already is and something you wouldn't appreciate, or deconstruction of your premise because there's nothing else to go on by.

But okay, if we are to go off from only the manual backstory and your general setup, the most realistic outcome of the mainline story would be over quite quickly because the Protoss are just plainly OP. Course, if you want to add conceits to artificially (which is a problem you cite with the current iteration but then are only just as happy to use liberally in another way to support your preferred version) boost the Zerg and Terrans so that they can remain toe-to-toe indefinitely then yeah, whatever, it'd just be a knock-off but smaller version of Wh40k. Question is, why would I even want Sc to become more like a lesser version of WH40K when I can just go enjoy WH40K instead? Saying that it opens it up to endless stories doesn't necessarily make each and any one of those potentially "good" either because it depends on how it's written, so all we can do is provide pointless speculation and fanwank on what we think constitutes a good story which doesn't guarantee it to be any better than what we already got.

[sandwich_bird]

Threads have been merged. You want a new name?

[Mislagnissa]

Threads have been merged. You want a new name?

Oh yes, thank you. I think a simple title like "Starcraft reboot ideas discussion thread" would be a good change.

[Mislagnissa]

Considering that you don't want to hear other people's POVs, I'd say that can be interpreted as you saying that others don't know what they're talking about, so their opinion is irrelevant and therefore utter BS. Also, since you just said there's no right or wrong here, you can then explain how you once said how the only "success" the SC2 storyline had was that it failed EVERYTHING. But if there's no right or wrong, then that shouldn't apply. I keep telling you not everyone just outright rejected the SC2 lore. You going to accuse them as utter psychos and don't know what they're talking about either?

You're right. I'm sorry for being so abrasive.

I don't outright reject the SC2 lore. There are things about it I can adapt, like protoss mind uploading or the tal'darim tribe. I just think loads of key plot points are badly written, in both SC1, BW and SC2.

The games simply aren't well written. I wrote that huge list of problems with the storyline. I've criticized it at length. You claim that it can be salvaged, but you haven't given me any examples of how. You've never once rebutted my claims. Furthermore, you only seem care about SC2 and give SC1/BW a free pass for the same problems. Is my impression mistaken?

I'd certainly LOVE to see your attempt to fix SC, but your statements so far don't inspire confidence in me. Do you want to fix SC or not? I genuinely can't tell because you've never given me anything to work with. Do you have an outline or something?

But there's nothing really else to talk about though (beyond saying "good work") since you've already outlined what you intended with the premise. No-one's engaging with you because they can't think of anything else to add and they don't have the motivation to do so/behind it like you.

All we can offer is pointless speculation based off your premise - which would understandably be rooted in what everyone else knows about what Starcraft already is and something you wouldn't appreciate, or deconstruction of your premise because there's nothing else to go on by.

But okay, if we are to go off from only the manual backstory and your general setup, the most realistic outcome of the mainline story would be over quite quickly because the Protoss are just plainly OP. Course, if you want to add conceits to artificially (which is a problem you cite with the current iteration but then are only just as happy to use liberally in another way to support your preferred version) boost the Zerg and Terrans so that they can remain toe-to-toe indefinitely then yeah, whatever, it'd just be a knock-off but smaller version of Wh40k. Question is, why would I even want Sc to become more like a lesser version of WH40K when I can just go enjoy WH40K instead? Saying that it opens it up to endless stories doesn't necessarily make each and any one of those potentially "good" either because it depends on how it's written, so all we can do is provide pointless speculation and fanwank on what we think constitutes a good story which doesn't guarantee it to be any better than what we already got.

Can we please cease being cynical and contrary? You said you liked the licensed fiction. There's been a bunch of custom campaigns made in the last two decades.

Remember that time I once suggested the story of New Texas and their fight against the zerg and protoss? Surely you can devise the premise of at least one story too?

[Mislagnissa]

@Misla

All my replies are merely food for thought. It's not my fault your confirmation bias can't permit you to see them as nothing more than un-constructive criticism/bashing.

I'm calling you out that's for sure, but I'm not telling you to do anything. I don't really care one way or another how you write your fanfic, I'm just putting down an opinion (I never claim to be right nor have intent to be so because the instant I do, I know I am most certainly not) because you've put this on an open forum and because others may be interested in following this, not just you.

A common theme I keep picking up is that your replies betray your stated intent. You say you want criticism but you seemingly don't. You say you're not doing it for self-aggrandisement, but you seemingly are. You say you're interested in others thoughts/open-minded, but not really and only of a particular kind that supports your bias. It's absolutely reasonable for me to ask why you are even bothering at all to put this on a forum or even ask for others input - and I say all this with no intent to offend, mind you.

You say you just want to make an alternate universe of SC. However, your motivation and underlying rhetoric about how shit/terrible/bad the actual thing we got and how good your version is going to be makes it hard for anyone to consider/engage your premise seriously when all you're doing is bandying about by saying you seek to emulate these other "better" works and shifting the setup around without giving any samples of your actual writing. You have nothing of substance to your absolute assurance that your story or any story that comes from this setup will be better than the apparent "shit" we got.

Also, I also don't get why you'd get upset or expect a different/better reaction from people who do respond to your premise by only saying "it's nice" and/or "well, it's not Starcraft" when they're all legitimate responses in a forum that is dedicated to the Starcraft we did get. It's kinda like you going into someone's home and telling everyone who lives there how much better there home can be, letting slip that it's really just a shithole, then expect them to thank you for telling/suggesting this to them and you feeling even more upset than the people who live there when they don't reciprocate your feelings!

I apologize for being abrasive. That is my bad.

Given the prior examples of the licensed fiction hamstringing the skill of even great authors (e.g. Starcraft: Evolution), I do not believe that the canon is a solid basis for storytelling. It is not well written and it is not consistent, as Blizzard cannot write well nor maintain consistency. This places an absolute restriction on the skill of even the best authors.

Therefore, I feel that the only way to provide a solid basis for storytelling is to reboot the lore to be consistent and better written than canon. Rather than being plot-driven and relying on rampant lazy deus ex machina, mary sue, etc, I believe the stories would be better served by adopting a character- and faction-driven style a la Game of Thrones or Warhammer 40,000.

While this removes the imposed restriction on author skill, it doesn't increase existing author skill. It is up the authors to write well. As you said so, I agree. Even so, Blizzard sets an extremely low bar to begin with. I doubt most posters here can write that badly.

I am frustrated that more posters don't engage because I am used to dealing with much healthier fandoms that are open to discussion and creativity, like Game of Thrones, Avatar: The Last Airbender, Voltron: Legendary Defender, etc. Starcraft fandom feels anemic and theocratic in comparison.

[ragnarok]

You're right. I'm sorry for being so abrasive.

I don't outright reject the SC2 lore. There are things about it I can adapt, like protoss mind uploading or the tal'darim tribe. I just think loads of key plot points are badly written, in both SC1, BW and SC2.

The games simply aren't well written. I wrote that huge list of problems with the storyline. I've criticized it at length. You claim that it can be salvaged, but you haven't given me any examples of how. You've never once rebutted my claims. Furthermore, you only seem care about SC2 and give SC1/BW a free pass for the same problems. Is my impression mistaken?

I'd certainly LOVE to see your attempt to fix SC, but your statements so far don't inspire confidence in me. Do you want to fix SC or not? I genuinely can't tell because you've never given me anything to work with. Do you have an outline or something?

Can we please cease being cynical and contrary? You said you liked the licensed fiction. There's been a bunch of custom campaigns made in the last two decades.

Remember that time I once suggested the story of New Texas and their fight against the zerg and protoss? Surely you can devise the premise of at least one story too?

This was why I wrote my fic on fanfiction.net (then real life took over and I simply had no time for writing). Keep in mind that my fic only tried tying what happened between WoL and HotS.

After all the other SC2 lore we've gotten since then, not just HotS, LotV, and NCO, but also Evolution, Shadow Wars, Nova: The Keep, Soldiers and so on, I'm still trying to piece everything together. However, in the end I DID agree with Gradius, Stratos, Tura and others to become more critical, especially after HotS came out (keep in mind that was when SC fanfic activity practically died out on ff.net).

That's why I'll keep looking at what other lore Blizzard plans to come up with, and see how to take things from there.

[Mislagnissa]

This was why I wrote my fic on fanfiction.net (then real life took over and I simply had no time for writing). Keep in mind that my fic only tried tying what happened between WoL and HotS.

After all the other SC2 lore we've gotten since then, not just HotS, LotV, and NCO, but also Evolution, Shadow Wars, Nova: The Keep, Soldiers and so on, I'm still trying to piece everything together. However, in the end I DID agree with Gradius, Stratos, Tura and others to become more critical, especially after HotS came out (keep in mind that was when SC fanfic activity practically died out on ff.net).

That's why I'll keep looking at what other lore Blizzard plans to come up with, and see how to take things from there.

Blizzard has no plan. They make stuff up as they go along and do not care about maintaining consistency. Just look at what happened with Warcraft.

Again, you still seem to be ignoring all the story problems that predate SC2. Why? There are too many plot holes, inconsistencies, idiot characters, and other bad writing. I do not think it is remotely feasible to make sense of the canon, hence why I advocate for rebooting it.

I honestly wonder why I keep trying. Nobody seems interested in Starcraft period, much less any attempt to fix the bad writing.