Starcraft reboot ideas discussion thread

[Nissa]

It's completely plausible that the protoss who have looked down on humans for centuries would view them all as the same. Not a huge leap of logic to assume that if they can work alongside Raynor they can work alongside other humans too. Again, one of Raynor's people can steal 'toss tech too; see the doublethink going on?

Might I repeat that they both trust Raynor and he's a smaller group. Raynor didn't necessarily contribute much to victory, and he and his men have been fighting with the Protoss since Char. They have a trust relationship going on. As much as it's possible for one of Raynor's men to steal, because they are smaller and more trusted, it is less likely they will, and more likely that the Protoss will be able to observe any odd actions by one of Raynor's men. This is completely different from bringing in two large human armies of people they don't know and have no trust relationship with. Any random dude could snag anything, and perhaps even steal Protoss artifacts/artwork/toys/clothing/household goods as just random souvenirs, either to keep for themselves or sell to people back home. Because Raynor's men have worked with and respect their Protoss friends, this effect is diminished.

It's not doublethink for a trusted group to be treated different from a non-trusted group. That's like saying Americans should treat England and Latvia exactly the same because they're Europeans and "all Europeans are the same." Stop with the strawmanning.

That, and if the 'Toss have been looking down on the humans for a long time, it's highly likely they will continue to do so until they have clear reason to stop.

The only requirement for working with humans is that it has to be something the protoss actually want; and when they're in deep shit from the zerg, they're going to want it, probably even pursue it. The idea that they'd rather have the planet infested by zerg, their people slaughtered, and their religious sites desecrated, rather than some humans step foot on it is just...irrational and mind-boggling. I don't get it. <_<

Well, remember, that's your perspective. You're not a Protoss, and the Protoss would have a wide range of subjective opinions on the matter. And yes, some would view bringing in humans as further desecration. After all, a Zerg will only destroy a temple. A human can mock it. And probably there are 'Toss out there that view human presence itself as a desecration. While I'm sure that some Protoss will feel as you do, there are others who think the Protoss should handle their own matters. And there are still others who would find it politically more reasonable and much more safe to use any alliance with humans (or "alliance") as a way to keep the Zerg distracted in other parts of space other than the Protoss worlds. Like in WWII, how the Allied forces used the Soviet Union to distract the Nazis (and vice-versa).

Actually, yeah, now that I think about it, using human allies in separate military actions makes far more sense than bringing them to Aiur.

Are you sure you understand the core concept of a remake?

Absolutely! I just think that your concept of a remake contains a fundamentally flawed political element.

That wasn't my point. My point was that Tassadar sucks at communicating, whether or not he knew or did not know.

Having said though, given that the "he was informed off-screen/improv-ed his response badly" is an argument from ignorance, having "absolutely zero evidence" is a requirement for such an argument to justify itself. Therefore, in this context, it could be entirely "reasonable" to say that Tass did/did not deliberately withhold information or mislead, too.

I think we can all agree that he sucks at communicating, but in writing, there are always going to be those things that lean one way or another, and the narrative refuses to choose between the two. Honestly, given that Tassadar was trying to promote the DTs, it seems unlikely that he would go out of his way to show that the DTs have something that the Khalai' Toss need. So I think it is more likely that he didn't know, and he's being an impetuous youth by scoffing at Aldaris. I mean, that's how he was treating Aldaris for the whole game, so...

However, it is arguable that Tassadar may have had Aldaris go on that failed mission on purpose, just to prove his point. Given that the 'Toss were going to fight the Zerg anyway, this isn't necessarily as bad as it might seem. Maybe he figured that since Aldaris and co. had fought their way to the cerebrate's location, it would be simple for them to suddenly agree to work with DTs and then take out the cerebrate more or less right away. At the same time, I don't think this is terribly likely, given that Tassadar doesn't seem like the kind of person that thinks that far ahead.

[Gradius]

The Overmind and Zeratul shared information when the latter killed Zasz. If the Overmind knows then that only DT could harm it, it's reasonable to think that Zeratul could know this as well. Zeratul and Tassadar are in cahoots and the latter has learned much from the former about their Zerg enemies. Therefore, it is reasonable to presume Tass knows this also by the time he speaks to Aldaris about killing cerebrates. The "assumption" that the void requirement is known (it's actually more of a presumption than an assumption) is made because of what is there leads us to make it in the first place. In the absence of any other more obvious evidence, this takes precedence.

The Overmind also hasn't had cerebrates killed by dark templar before and might also be ignorant of the void requirement. It could have been under the assumption that the swarm commcanders were literally immortal and then after the attack figured out that wasn't the case. Daggoth says "the Protoss have devised some new attack. An attack powerful enough to nullify our reincarnation," not "the protoss have finally learned how to use void energy to kill us!".

Apart from that, excuse Zeratul for not gathering every bit of information in what must have been an overwhelming brief mental contact with a millennia-old entity. Likewise, the Overmind appears to have zero clue about Shakuras. The Overmind was probing more for the location of Aiur, and Zeratul was probing more for the Overmind's origins (well, the game says the Overmind's "thoughts"). Again, I get the train of thought here, but creating a character flaw for Tassadar out of some wonky psionic mental contact and circumstances that we don't have enough information about isn't really necessary...

The subsequent and secondary issue of why Tass then didn't tell Aldaris about this void requirement if he did know could be "evidence" for him not actually knowing at all, but this conflicts with the presumption formed from the information I mentioned above. One can resolve this second issue more easily with an assumption: Tass just neglected to tell them for whatever reason.

Except that second assumption makes even less sense given what we know about Tassadar's character. He loves Aiur and wouldn't omit important information that could help save protoss lives. The easiest assumption to make is just that Zeratul didn't even know there was a void requirement and that killing cerebrates was enough. Not super unbelievable.

One is lead to presume more that he's a bad communicator or trolling

Again, that makes no sense from a writing/character standpoint. That theory can get axed, whereas making some basic in-universe presumptions is perfectly fine especially if you're going to dig this deep into Tassadar's character. StarCraft is barebones enough that we kind of have to make assumptions all the time anyway.

Having said though, given that the "he was informed off-screen/improv-ed his response badly" is an argument from ignorance, having "absolutely zero evidence" is a requirement for such an argument to justify itself. Therefore, in this context, it could be entirely "reasonable" to say that Tass did/did not deliberately withhold information or mislead, too.

That's not how that works. You're the one saying Tassadar "deliberately misinforms his superiors", so the burden of proof is on you to provide the in-game evidence. Yeah, you've convinced me that that one piece of dialog is poor writing and/or needs more elaboration, but not that Tassadar is trolling Aldaris or purposefully omitted information.

[Turalyon]

Honestly, given that Tassadar was trying to promote the DTs, it seems unlikely that he would go out of his way to show that the DTs have something that the Khalai' Toss need.

So he's trying to "promote" the DT by lying through ommission? That's sure not going to fan the flames of mistrust is it?

Also, you don't consider starting an insurrection, fighting and killing his brethren counts as him having gone out of his way to show the DT's have something the Khalai Protoss need? O.O

However, it is arguable that Tassadar may have had Aldaris go on that failed mission on purpose, just to prove his point. Given that the 'Toss were going to fight the Zerg anyway, this isn't necessarily as bad as it might seem. Maybe he figured that since Aldaris and co. had fought their way to the cerebrate's location, it would be simple for them to suddenly agree to work with DTs and then take out the cerebrate more or less right away. At the same time, I don't think this is terribly likely, given that Tassadar doesn't seem like the kind of person that thinks that far ahead.

Hah, I don't know what's worse! Tassadar not knowing and just being really crap at communicating something so simple or Tass knowing and being a dick about it to net himself some smugness points.

The Overmind also hasn't had cerebrates killed by dark templar before and might also be ignorant of the void requirement.

So? The Overmind eventually does know of the requirement after the fact/killing of Zasz in Eye for an Eye: "These Dark Templar radiate energies that are much like my own, and it is by these energies that they have caused me harm."

If the Overmind can deduce this quickly why couldn't Zeratul, when they apparently touched minds/shared info? Did Z hit this same final deduction sometime later between Into the Flames and Choosing Sides, told Tass just in time to get into trouble requiring to be rescued by Tass and how this bit of information also happens to sway the Executor in assisting Tass? Convenient, ain't it? I mean, sure, if there was no mind touching and Z just happened to be responsible for the last killing blow to Zasz, then I could get they had no idea that Void was needed to kill cerebrates but this doesn't explain satisfactorily on a Watsonian level how Tassadar somehow knows all of a sudden later on and why he speaks as if he knew it/ he'd potentially known since the first time he spoke to Aldaris.

Apart from that, excuse Zeratul for not gathering every bit of information in what must have been an overwhelming brief mental contact with a millennia-old entity.

But Z does get the information eventually and he somehow does tell Tass because Tass speaks adamantly that only DT can kill cerebrates later on in Choosing Sides.

Except that second assumption makes even less sense given what we know about Tassadar's character. He loves Aiur and wouldn't omit important information that could help save protoss lives. The easiest assumption to make is just that Zeratul didn't even know there was a void requirement and that killing cerebrates was enough. Not super unbelievable.

The second assumption (not a presumption) doesn't have to be a "negative" one. I said "for whatever reason" afterall. For example, it could be that he didn't deem it necessary to inform them of the technical way to kill them because he knew they had no means to actually kill it (having no DT and all on Aiur) and thought that striking the cerebrate generally would be enough on its own to manage the Zerg. Though this still doesn't excuse his poor manner of explanation to Aldaris' accusations later on that his info was useless.

Again, that makes no sense from a writing/character standpoint.

Chalk it up to an instance of bad writing. I am.

You're the one saying Tassadar "deliberately misinforms his superiors", so the burden of proof is on you to provide the in-game evidence.

Not quite. I'm saying that the writing leads one to make this presumption a potential viable reason. I wasn't going for "he was a dick and here's proof", it's more like "he seems like a dick based on these circumstances".

[Gradius]

Not quite. I'm saying that the writing leads one to make this presumption a potential viable reason. I wasn't going for "he was a dick and here's proof", it's more like "he seems like a dick based on these circumstances".

I guess I can agree with that. But I still don’t think he was actually omitting information.

[Visions of Khas]

Regardless of the plot and story, can we have an appearance by some of the client races under the Protoss' Dae'Uhl protectorate?

[Mislagnissa]

Regardless of the plot and story, can we have an appearance by some of the client races under the Protoss' Dae'Uhl protectorate?

Sure. But which version of the Protoss history are we going with?

Protoss history
The manual states they developed various god-like technology on their homeworld during the First Age, nuked themselves into the stone age, then rebuilt and presumably reclaimed their heights while expanding into a galactic empire. There is no indication of any decline.

Then the multiplayer maps come and claim that the Aeon of Strife covered multiple planets, suggesting that the protoss were expanding into an interstellar power before and/or during the Aeon.

Then BW claims the protoss had an interstellar empire in the past which has since declined and lost its territories (explaining why Aiur and Shakuras seem to be the only protoss-inhabited planets in the game). Based on the previous two pieces of info one could conclude this is the pre-Aeon empire rather than an empire after the Aeon and prior to the present. (Given the inconsistencies regarding the determinant and the relative military might between the zerg and protoss between the manual suggestions and the game implementation, it is difficult to make predictions.)

By SC2 the protoss became generic declining Tolkien elves in space, with their empire declining after the Aeon. The term for this is "lost age" or something.

The version seemingly used by Enumerate (it doesn't include a backstory so I had to make the connections myself), combines these different interpretations by moving the "lost age" to before the Aeon of Strife and having it end by nuclear war rather than a Tolkienesque decline, followed by the protoss rebuilding and currently in the middle of renaissance (which jives with them sending expeditions to explore areas unclaimed by the empire in the manual, like Tassadar's "famous" expedition prior to the koprulu wars). This isn't just idle lore, as a key plot point is that the zerg fear what the protoss will do when they reclaim or exceed the tech of their ancestors so various zerg crusades are launched to investigate archaeological sites to keep them out of protoss hands (and maybe exploit them for zerg benefit too).

The Determinant
Since we are talking about a reboot and the not the game canon, I would like to suggest that we keep the manual statements about the zerg needing the determinant to fight the protoss' constantly growing modern galactic empire. I think making Kerry the determinant is lame and that it should be armies of horrible zerg monsters created using terran psychic genes.

Like, I don't know, the footsoldiers, psychic creep colonies and giant brain structures from Enumerate along with whatever else you could think up. Like, I don't know, variants of the footsoldiers with wings that function like jetpacks, a refluff of the otherwise worthless aberrations as having psychic powers since that was the point of the determinant, and other ways of enhancing the zerg with psychic powers to counter the protoss.

I actually thought of a few different ideas in this vein. Like, I don't know, the zerg create their own equivalents of pylons and the psionic matrix and plant god bugs on key protoss planets to hijack the psionic matrix to keep the protoss from casually travelling across the empire.

Basically, anything that is more impressive than Kerry chasing a dozen ninjas in circles on Char.

Protoss physiology (and some culture)
We also need to tweak the protoss' art design to make it clear that they are not just humans in makeup. Their heads are shaped like flattened cones if the artwork of the swarm queen holding a protoss skull is any indication, and they do not actually seem to have distinct skin, muscles and bones since the skull looks identical to a living protoss head aside from bleaching. In the comics, one panel shows a character with a chin that resembles an elephantine trunk. In the SCR art, the zealot has a massively elongated head seen nowhere else. (In fact, prior to SC2 the protoss did not seem to have a consistent art design. Much SC1 era art of zealots does not include the nerve cords.)

The canon descriptions of their physiology (many collected in the Field Manual) are nonsensical and needlessly complicated, like the fact that they are photosynthetic despite having wildly diverse skin tones, their psychic powers have a different power source from their photosynthesis, they are or were hunters despite lacking any apparent digestive system, they have hearts and apparently blood but no actual circulatory system, they inhale/exhale and sometimes wear gas masks without any lungs or orifices or while standing in outer space, they somehow have eyes which do not count as orifices, they have breasts and nipples and belly buttons, blah blah blah.

It took me about five minutes to come up with an alien physiology for protoss that does not sound like it was made by someone who has no concept of anatomy. My idea is fairly simple: the protoss do not have organs or even a cellular structure, and their physiology simply could not function without their psychic powers filling the gaps. Instead of all the organs and cells that make up terrans and zerg, the protoss are colonies of virions (similar to Jenova from Final Fantasy). A virion is similar to a virus, except that its protein coat is a prion. Prions can form long chains which turn the brains of infected organisms into Swiss cheese, eventually killing them. Protoss bodies are composed entirely of prions, with some genetic material telling the prions how to fold to replicate some of the functionality of tissues. Among other things, it means that they don't have a distinction between tissues like skin, muscle and bone. You could describe their bodies as being composed of nothing but blue blood and clay without being far off.

Protoss have sex by physically and mentally fusing together, like the Asari from Mass Effect and the Babyeaters or Superhappies from Three Worlds Collide. When couples reproduce, they do so by biologically manufacturing their child before separating. This process was the foundation for the fusion that creates archons. (This is intended to be a sex joke, so please laugh internally.) Archons, which are technically a further evolution but currently unstable, are even weirder and I cannot describe them beyond them basically being miniature sentient stars composed of exotic matter.

Not everyone may agree with this idea, but I posit that protoss have three genders. Male, female, and a third gender which resembles a male but is biologically female. (This is supposed to explain why Syndrea and Edullon look masculine but have feminine voices.) More genders may exist, but I have not thought about them.

As for things like sustenance, I figure that the protoss are psychic vampires because that doesn't require further explanation. The khalai derive their nourishment from the khala, psionic matrix or whatever powers their psychic powers, though they might feed on plants or animals for pleasure (or desperation once the zerg start attacking the khala/psionic matrix/etc). The nerazim are nomadic because their dark matrix cannot provide sustenance so they migrate between different feeding grounds. They built permanent nexus points at the places they migrate between, but these are the only permanent settlements they build. Presumably they are advanced enough to build food replicators, but by this point being hidden and highly mobile is ingrained into their culture and resistant to change.

I do think protoss should breathe, but I won't pretend to explain how they do that would any orifices. It's space magic, it doesn't have to make any frigging sense. Corsair pilots, for example, wear gas masks for some reason (although this might actually be the interface for their neutrino gun thing, whatever). Their shields or whatever are advanced enough to serve as space suits, so they cannot actually breathe in space and will eventually asphyxiate. Alternately, they actually respire psychic energy or whatever so eating/breathing is the same thing to them, in which case they will asphyxiate if they are cut off from pylons (or victims) for too long and their internal batteries or whatever run out.

Whatever explanation is the simplest and doesn't raise further questions. The KISS principle exists for a reason.

[sandwich_bird]

It took me about five minutes to come up with an alien physiology for protoss that does not sound like it was made by someone who has no concept of anatomy. My idea is fairly simple: the protoss do not have organs or even a cellular structure, and their physiology simply could not function without their psychic powers filling the gaps. Instead of all the organs and cells that make up terrans and zerg, the protoss are colonies of virions (similar to Jenova from Final Fantasy). A virion is similar to a virus, except that its protein coat is a prion. Prions can form long chains which turn the brains of infected organisms into Swiss cheese, eventually killing them. Protoss bodies are composed entirely of prions, with some genetic material telling the prions how to fold to replicate some of the functionality of tissues. Among other things, it means that they don't have a distinction between tissues like skin, muscle and bone. You could describe their bodies as being composed of nothing but blue blood and clay without being far off.

No, it took you 5 minutes to come up with something that doesn't make any more sense but sounds 'cool' to anyone without grade 10 biology... You can't make a functioning organism out of viruses. A virus doesn't do anything other than attaching itself to a cell and injecting it's DNA for replication. It can't replicate itself. It can't have specialized functions. etc. If it could, it wouldn't be a virus. You're right in saying that they'd be like a pile of clay(no clue where your blue blood fits in this?) and just like a pile of clay it wouldn't move or do anything.. let alone be sentient.

Photosynthesis, even if it doesn't make sense, makes a lot more sense than what you just came up with so congrats.

Not everyone may agree with this idea, but I posit that protoss have three genders. Male, female, and a third gender which resembles a male but is biologically female. (This is supposed to explain why Syndrea and Edullon look masculine but have feminine voices.) More genders may exist, but I have not thought about them.

There's no point in having genders if they reproduce by mentally fusing together plus it doesn't help your aim of differentiating them from humans.

[Mislagnissa]

No, it took you 5 minutes to come up with something that doesn't make any more sense but sounds 'cool' to anyone without grade 10 biology... You can't make a functioning organism out of viruses. A virus doesn't do anything other than attaching itself to a cell and injecting it's DNA for replication. It can't replicate itself. It can't have specialized functions. etc. If it could, it wouldn't be a virus. You're right in saying that they'd be like a pile of clay(no clue where your blue blood fits in this?) and just like a pile of clay it wouldn't move or do anything.. let alone be sentient.

I'm not stupid. I know all that because I studied biology in college and you clearly skimmed it because I answered those complaints preemptively. I said viroins, which are different from viruses. Viroins do not exist in reality. I fully acknowledge that my suggestions are biologically impossible, which is why I explicitly stated that their biology does not work even in-universe without their innate psychic powers filling in the gaps. The overall implication is supposed to be that the protoss have radically simplified their biology to only those components which are absolutely necessary, even then there's a bit of space magic involved that nobody understands.

Where canon gets things wrong is that it references real science and gets it wrong, rather than using magical explanations with no basis in reality. I used magical explanations with no basis in reality because you cannot prove fictional magic wrong using real science.

Photosynthesis, even if it doesn't make sense, makes a lot more sense than what you just came up with so congrats.

If two things have zero sense, it is impossible for either to make more sense than the other. Their amounts of sense are always equal to zero. In other words, please stop being flippantly dismissive and disrespectful of my suggestions while elevating the bullshit that is canon. Unlike the random forum mod who first invented the photosynthesis retcon while knowing nothing about photosynthesis, I studied biology in college and know how impossible it is. That's why I liberally invoke space magic.

I don't mind if you have a legitimate criticism of my suggestions, but please stop pretending that canon is anything other than bullshit or that it is arbitrarily better than my bullshit. Bullshit is bullshit.

There's no point in having genders if they reproduce by mentally fusing together plus it doesn't help your aim of differentiating them from humans.

Fungi and many microrganisms reproduce by fusing together. Protoss have different genders because they cannot reproduce with the same gender; that is the definition of a gender.

If we still want to consider this starcraft, the protoss need to be recognizable. If you want radically inhuman then refer to my suggestions for a new universe loosely inspired by starcraft a few threads back.

I feel like you are being contrary and disrespectful for the sake of it. If my impression is wrong then I apologize, but I really don't want to get into a debate over whose made-up space magic biology is better. As far as I am concerned, it is better not to explain protoss at all or to rely entirely on magical explanations then to be an ignoramus who invokes real science only to get it wrong.

[Mislagnissa]

I made a typo. I was trying to say "virinos," not whatever I said.

[Mislagnissa]

To put it in the simplest terms:

Mutalisks fly through space by flapping their wings. Scientists have no idea how this is possible, it just is. They don’t bother to rationalize it with bullshit science.

Protoss don’t have distinct skin, muscles or bones. They eat/respire undefined energy from their environment. Scientists have no idea how any of it works, it just does.