Starcraft reboot ideas discussion thread

[Mislagnissa]

First tell me about the Eredar fiasco.

It has its own wiki page.

Well, LotV potentially retconned this already though. Given that the Zeratul stuff in WoL was revealed to be part of a ruse by Ouros (the "Deceiver" as I like to call him) to manipulate things to get Kerrigan to him, all those things about Tassadar and the subsequent Overminds vision could all be bunk. I think Ouros is supposed to be the hero ("good Xel'Naga to Amon's "evil" Xel'Naga), not the Overmind. For all we know, they could make it as if Ouros being really of the same ilk as Amon and be the next big bad (and is now using Kerrigan as a vessel) if a SC3 had to follow on from SC2. Then the Kerigan haters can rejoice so that the story now has an excuse to put her down for good!

How is that really so different from my suggestion to retcon Ouros and Amon into cerebrates? I do not like Ouros or find him remotely interesting. I want the Overmind and cerebrates back. I want their culture explored like Unhappy Anchovy suggested over at spacebattles. Brood mothers are lame and boring.

[Mislagnissa]

You should probably also add the rule that the status quo (that the 3 races are always equal and never gain a decisive advantage over the other) has to be maintained because otherwise it'd be too easily biased toward one's race preference.

For example, if it were up to me following on from the manual and the status quo could be changeable, I'd just have the Zerg take the psionic potential off the Terrans and kill them all off cos the Terrans are really that weak. Then the Zerg fight the Protoss for some time until they get enough samples to start assimilating them and then eventually beat them as well. The bits in between are all just "details". As you can probably tell from this, I have a bias toward/like the Zerg and it'd make for a dull story...

Sure, why not?

There is no obligation to include the fall of the Confederacy or the invasion of Aiur either. The Koprulu war could last an arbitrarily long period of time. Starcraft 1 kind of shot itself in the foot by resolving every plot thread it introduced, which is why every sequel is kind of lame. You could make a whole franchise about the Koprulu war alone.

EDIT: Even the whole thing about dark templar killing cerebrates can be ignored because it is not foreshadowed in the manual. In fact, cerebrate immortality is not suggested either. They could be killed by normal means!

[ragnarok]

EDIT: Even the whole thing about dark templar killing cerebrates can be ignored because it is not foreshadowed in the manual. In fact, cerebrate immortality is not suggested either. They could be killed by normal means!

You mean what happened in the last BW terran mission? I felt the 3rd protoss mission used the DT killing strategy merely to force the player to build DTs. After all, the Overmind made it clear in SC1 that HE'S the one who does the reincarnating. The Cerebrates can't do it themselves.

[ragnarok]

How is that really so different from my suggestion to retcon Ouros and Amon into cerebrates? I do not like Ouros or find him remotely interesting. I want the Overmind and cerebrates back. I want their culture explored like Unhappy Anchovy suggested over at spacebattles. Brood mothers are lame and boring.

It's to try something different than the cerebrates. Personally I felt Kerrigan shouldn't have used too much of herself as a template for the broodmothers. In all actuality I'm surprised none of them bothered to conspire against her (maybe that would have happened in the future had the events of WoL never happened)

[Nissa]

I wouldn't have made a game. I would have made a novel series.

...But, if we must make a game, I would have made it exactly like SC and BW, except that Aldaris would have a logical reason for not sending a transmission to Zeratul about the Matriarch, the second Terran missions would have been about Mengsk maintaining his rule/dealing with factions and infighting, and Raynor and Fenix would not have worked all that closely with Kerrigan for no reason.

[Turalyon]

If you're going to make Ouros the hero, you shouldn't have had him give Kerrigan the whole matter of ascension.

I'm not doing anything. The game ultimately bills Ouros as the hero/good guy, to Amon's villain/bad guy. Kerrigan's "forced redemption" isn't possible without Ouros gifting her the power to kill the villain/bad guy.

How is that really so different from my suggestion to retcon Ouros and Amon into cerebrates?

I was just commenting on the apparent retcon in WoL of the Overmind being the "good guy" (to Amon's "bad guy") being later retconned in LotV as Ouros actually being the "good guy" instead and that this can then later be retconned into Ouros being just another "bad guy".

As to those Xel'Naga being retconned into cerebrates, well, that takes another level of um... incredulity that the series cannot afford to sustain given that most of the retcons in Sc2 tipped us into BS territory already. If you're going to do that, we might as well retcon Raynor into being revealed as a time travelling, amnesiac, far-flung future Xel'Naga, too, while we're at it.

I do not like Ouros or find him remotely interesting. I want the Overmind and cerebrates back. I want their culture explored like Unhappy Anchovy suggested over at spacebattles. Brood mothers are lame and boring.

Ditto regarding Ouros. As to the Overmind and cerebrates coming back... eh, I did consider them coming back for a long time (I fanoned way back after when BW was released that the Overmind that died at Aiur wasn't technically the Overmind...) but the more I think about it the more I'm glad it didn't for various reasons. BW already had the neo-Overmind, so having it coming back again after that would just feel more like a repetitious "been there, done that" feel. It'd feel like a conceit for the sake of continuing something and relying on nostalgia to carry it - much like what Sc2 in its entirety ended up feeling like. Time for any actual continuation of Sc's story to die methinks. Stick to Enumerate.

[Mislagnissa]

You mean what happened in the last BW terran mission? I felt the 3rd protoss mission used the DT killing strategy merely to force the player to build DTs. After all, the Overmind made it clear in SC1 that HE'S the one who does the reincarnating. The Cerebrates can't do it themselves.

Why are you expecting SC to be consistent? It is not and never has been consistent. The writers made things up as they went along.

I wouldn't have made a game. I would have made a novel series.

...But, if we must make a game, I would have made it exactly like SC and BW, except that Aldaris would have a logical reason for not sending a transmission to Zeratul about the Matriarch, the second Terran missions would have been about Mengsk maintaining his rule/dealing with factions and infighting, and Raynor and Fenix would not have worked all that closely with Kerrigan for no reason.

That's against the rules I listed. I specifically said no QoB.

The official games are a complete waste of the IP's potential: full of plot devices, deus ex machinas, retcons, plot holes, villains coming out of the woodwork, etc. I really do not understand why you would just ape them. Here, I'll give an example of what kind of story you could tell if you were starting from scratch without aping the plot of BW.

The setup given in the manual is that the zerg are invading humanity to use their psychic genes for developing weapons against the protoss. However, the protoss have tracked zerg deep space probes to the koprulu sector. Executor Tassadar incinerated Chau Sara, but his conscience forced him to withdraw. Now the Confederacy is dealing with the zerg infestation that is steadily approaching the heart of their space. There are also politics at play among all three races.

In addition to the Confederacy are the Umojans and Kel-Morians and rebels. The Kel-Morians have been all but annexed into a client state of the Confederacy, but the recent alien invasion gives them a chance to reclaim their power. The Umojans are secretly funding rebel activities against the Confederacy, and they want to make truce with the protoss to learn from them.

In the protoss, the tribes Ara and Akilae have come into conflict over how to deal with the terrans caught in the crossfire. The Ara, a judicator caste and "praetorian guard" tribe, sees no problem with exterminating them as collateral damage. The Akilae, a templar caste and "high templar command" tribe, wants to protect the terrans against the zerg. Meanwhile, the mysterious dark templar have probably followed the zerg probes as well, and they might involve themselves in the conflict for whatever reason.

In the Zerg, the broods have a unity but can still develop camaraderie, rivalry and other politics. Zasz of the Garm Brood is considered whiny and unstable by the other cerebrates, while Kagg of the Surtur Brood is blood crazed and needs to be restrained when not deployed.

I would stay away from the psi emitter plot, since it is overused and the logic behind it is questionable. While it makes sense that the zerg would investigate the source, they are doing so because they are searching for psychics to assimilate. If they discover they are being lured then they may refuse.

I would stay away from anything approaching infested terran leaders for the swarm. The zerg desire the terrans for use as weapons, not control nodes. Furthermore, the Overmind created the cerebrates in the form of giant brains. I assume there is a practical reason for this and that you cannot just ignore that in future installments to replace them with pack leaders, brood mothers or whatever.

Since cerebrates are not immortal and the Overmind is a bodiless entity, there is no deus ex machina that can defeat all the zerg at once. If a cerebrate is killed, then I presume its brood will just create a new one. However, given the existence of psychic warfare, I suppose it make sense that broods could be fractured from the swarm. Given what we already know about the Overmind uniting the zerg, I predict these fractured broods would develop their own separate Overminds or something along those lines.

All three races have their own motivations and conflicts. The terrans are dealing with civil strife and alien invasion. The zerg need to assimilate the terrans before the protoss destroy them and survive long enough to develop a force that can invade the protoss empire. The protoss are dealing with a debate over whether to save or exterminate the terrans in the process. The dark templar are out there, biding their time.

It is a sandbox setting which could really go anywhere.

[Mislagnissa]

It's to try something different than the cerebrates.

The problem with that statement is that the cerebrates were never tried. They were teased during SC1 and given a suggestion of depth, with directives reflected in their personalities and broods, but ultimately killed off without fanfare. They proved ultimately irrelevant to the narrative, to the point where later retellings barely mention them if at all.

The brood mothers are just as irrelevant to the narrative as the cerebrates. Unlike the cerebrates, however, they are never even hinted as having goals of their own, personalities of any depth, or broods that reflect their goals. Zagara and Niadra have absolutely no personality whatsoever and mindlessly obey the last directives given to them by Kerry without any critical thought. Abathur and Dehaka have more depth by comparison, equivalent to those of SC1 cerebrates/broods. Just think of it: the SC1 cerebrates were characters with just as much or more depth as Abathur and Dehaka.

The same may be said of the protoss tribes and castes. Aside from being mentioned in the lore, the tribes and castes never played a role in the narrative. The only sides that mattered were the Khalai, Nerazim and Tal'darim. Even then their cultures have been barely ever explored and the significance of the Khala is completely glossed over. Indeed, the khalai, nerazim and tal'darim are functionally equivalent to SC1 tribes. In SC1 each of tribes were explained to fall neatly into one of the three castes, each tribe aka "sect" had a unique skin tone, and each tribe had their own culture which was variably integrated into the khala. Just think of it: in SC1 the protoss had numerous tribes, each of which had the same or more depth as just one of the SC2 factions.

Starcraft is just full of wasted potential like this.

I was just commenting on the apparent retcon in WoL of the Overmind being the "good guy" (to Amon's "bad guy") being later retconned in LotV as Ouros actually being the "good guy" instead and that this can then later be retconned into Ouros being just another "bad guy".

That does not really explain why he explicitly called the Overmind courageous, even though the Overmind wanted to eat everyone. We know the Overmind wanted to eat everyone because that is exactly what the primal zerg do for a living, and there is no reason to believe the Overmind would behave any differently. If Ouros was a cerebrate who served the Overmind, slipping up and calling it courageous while pretending to be Tassadar's ghost makes sense.

As to those Xel'Naga being retconned into cerebrates, well, that takes another level of um... incredulity that the series cannot afford to sustain given that most of the retcons in Sc2 tipped us into BS territory already. If you're going to do that, we might as well retcon Raynor into being revealed as a time travelling, amnesiac, far-flung future Xel'Naga, too, while we're at it.

Why not do the reverse and retcon the Overmind into a xel'naga? I mean, the official story goes that Amon created the Overmind to control the zerg, but we are never told exactly how this was done. Maybe Amon took another xel'naga and turned him into the Overmind. Maybe he took a group of xel'naga and turned them into the cerebrates, which explains why the xel'naga (and, for that matter, void thrashers) look like giant squid worm things similar how one might imagine the cerebrates based on their initial description alone. It is a way to bridge the gap between the retcons without (completely) alienating people only familiar with SC2's explanation.

BW already had the neo-Overmind, so having it coming back again after that would just feel more like a repetitious "been there, done that" feel. It'd feel like a conceit for the sake of continuing something and relying on nostalgia to carry it - much like what Sc2 in its entirety ended up feeling like. Time for any actual continuation of Sc's story to die methinks. Stick to Enumerate.

BW never actually did anything with the neo-Overmind: it was just a plot device, not a character. In fact, most of SC's plot boils down to the stupidest, most wasteful implementation of ideas that sound interesting on paper and probably would have been interesting in the hands of a better writer than Metzen.

The problem with continuations, reboots, retools, etc is that the fans cannot agree and whatever does happens will alienate people.

Reboot: Almost nobody is interested in a reboot to make the franchise more consistent, even though that happens in comics and movies all the time. Enumerate is not the only possibility, but it's the only suggestion that has its own fluff bible. You, me and Gradius are the only people who have ever spoken of it positively. Everyone else is butthurt that Kerry is not the main character. Unless other people are interested in supporting me, I do not have any incentive to put the effort into telling my own story.

Brood War 2: There is no chance in hell that Blizzard will write an alternate universe that continues from BW while ignoring SC2. The way that World of Warcraft raped the lore of Warcraft is clear proof of that. Even if they did in some alternate universe, it would end with Kerry killing everyone, or being killed by Duran, because BW ended on a downer note where she killed most of the protoss and terrans and rendered them unable to contribute to a sequel. Furthermore, there are already dozens of custom campaigns which do continue from BW. At least one of them is even written in the SC2 engine.

Starcraft 3: Continuing from SC2 is its own can of worms. Given Blizzard's past behavior, the official continuation (whether as SC3 or a new campaign for SC2) will be loaded with a new set of retcons that will alienate players of SC2 (while SC1 players will just shake their heads in exasperation that SC2 fans did not expect this). A continuation that did not introduce a bunch of extreme retcons would not have much to work with: all the factions are at peace (despite this being unrealistic and boring) and any attempts to create new conflict would feel forced (case in point: Niadra is a meat robot mindless following Kerry's last orders and the Defenders of Man are outright lunatics without a real goal). Even the custom campaigns that continued the story of SC2 have introduced new villains out of the woodwork: evil robots that can pretend to be people, the purifiers randomly turning genocidal, the Overmind coming back and dying again in the span of one or two missions, the tal'darim worshiping a new random space demon/witch-king/whatever, rogue brood mothers building armies of hybrids, primal zerg on other planets without explanation, independent tribes of protoss who were never enslaved by Amon, independent terran governments and zerg broods outside the Koprulu sector, and so forth.

[ragnarok]

I'm not doing anything. The game ultimately bills Ouros as the hero/good guy, to Amon's villain/bad guy. Kerrigan's "forced redemption" isn't possible without Ouros gifting her the power to kill the villain/bad guy.

And the good guy and bad guy are just POVs in the end. At the end of the day, whoever is left standing is considered the "hero." THAT is the final message

[ragnarok]

Why are you expecting SC to be consistent? It is not and never has been consistent. The writers made things up as they went along.

And yet you complain so much about SC2's lack of consistency.