Starcraft reboot ideas discussion thread

[Nissa]

I don't know, I still think it's possible that Tass didn't know. Heck, I think it's possible that the DTs didn't know. After all, they've just recently encountered the Zerg, so when cerebrates die at their hands, they're not necessarily thinking that it's because they're DTs. Even when Zeratul was in mental contact with the Overmind, he wouldn't necessarily have gotten that information.

Humans are already on it; the Raiders could have people from literally every faction as far as the protoss are concerned, so banning other factions from being there from the story makes no sense and seems like doublethink to me. They really don't have the option of being picky, and it'd be dumb to lose the planet because of that.

Don't have the option of being picky? We're talking about...well, I was going to say human nature, but anyway, Protoss nature. People don't have to be logical. Maybe in your opinion they don't have the right to be picky, but again, it's a matter of their subjective feelings about humans, and the different factions.
I also think it's mighty ridiculous you're treating all factions the same. It's very possible to have different feelings for different groups of humans, and is in fact very logical. After all, I'm sure Raynor had different opinions of Tassadar's followers and anyone who would listen to Aldaris. If the Protoss can't make such distinctions, they are not only stupid, but also putting their interests in danger. Humans fighting alongside Protoss means that those humans have potential access to Protoss tech and history, tech and history that the 'Toss aren't necessarily going to want to share. Not making distinctions between humans they trust and humans they don't trust is just out and out absurd.

That, and Alan Shezar's thing may have encouraged them to want to keep humans further away from Aiur, rather than going "Eh, well one human came around, so I guess that means our homeworld is free reign for the humans!"

[Gradius]

Nissa - the main lesson learned by the Conclave was to be open-minded and not prejudge others. Banning humans from helping you shows they’d have learned nothing and would also be dumb, which I don’t want the protoss in my remake to be. The protoss need help from a legitimate military not “Raynor’s Raiders”.

But he does have that knowledge and he does actually share it... in Choosing Sides (it's part of his reasoning to get the Executor to go help him rescue Zeratul), 3 missions after his first advice to go kill the cerebrates in Into the Flames! Aldaris be like "Once again, things that should have been brought to my attention YESTERDAY!"

Indeed, he immediately prefaces his advice to kill the cerebrates in Into the Flames by saying that he learnt much from the Dark Prelate, Zeratul. In light and hindsight of this, one could surmise that when Tass advised Aldaris of killing cerebrates, Tass probably thought it was a "given" in that cerebrates could only be killed by Dark Templar (expecting assumed knowledge from others get people into trouble all the time). This may explain why he didn't add "oh, by the way, you need Dark Templar/Void energy specifically to kill cerebrates just in case it wasn't clear the first time". However, this just speaks further of his major fault in poor communication and disconnect with his own people because Tassadar should know that Aiur is free of Dark Templar and that, therefore, "killing" cerebrates without them would not be possible.

Thats not proof he knew about it. It’s totally possible they didn’t try killing cerebrates using only Khalai energy and that they never made the connection. You can argue that he should have dropped everything he was doing as soon as he found out and told them but the game makes it clear that communication isn’t easy for him and that he’s stranded and getting destroyed. If he could even communicate Aldaris probably would have tried contacting Tassadar first instead of going straight to hunting him down on that platform. Not to mention that it could have been way too late when he found out, making the whole issue moot.

Or the other option is he still had no clue until Aldaris told him it didn't work, and he deduced the void requirement and his response on the spot.

[Turalyon]

I don't know, I still think it's possible that Tass didn't know.

Thats not proof he knew about it.

Quoted from Tassadar in Choosing Sides: "Unfortunately, yes. Your attack on the Cerebrate failed because the energies that you wield are useless when used directly against the Overmind and its Cerebrates. Only the Dark Templar's power can truly harm the Zerg. That is why we must rescue Zeratul and return him to Aiur!"

The contention is not if he knows about it (since the quote clearly states he does) but rather when he knew it.

Sure, you can say that it's unclear when exactly Tassadar knows for certain it's DT that can only kill cerebrates, but do you really think that he actually didn't know when telling Aldaris in Into the Flames and then somehow became illuminated somehow 3 missions later in Choosing Sides when he makes that definitive quote? In that quote he doesn't even say something along the lines "well, maybe your attack failed because you didn't have DT" which would lend more credence to the theory that he "didn't know", but he seems quite certain with that quote.

Indeed, there's even foreshadowing that Tass actually does know only DT can harm cerebrates from the get-go as he says this in Into the Flames: "Hear me, Executor, for I have learned much from the Dark Templar Prelate, Zeratul. The Overmind controls its minions through agents called Cerebrates. Strike down the Cerebrates, and the Swarms will surely fall." Otherwise, why else would Tass preface the killing of cerebrates with him learning much from the Dark Templar?

Heck, I think it's possible that the DTs didn't know. After all, they've just recently encountered the Zerg, so when cerebrates die at their hands, they're not necessarily thinking that it's because they're DTs. Even when Zeratul was in mental contact with the Overmind, he wouldn't necessarily have gotten that information.

Then how does Tassadar know enough to make such an assertive statement (the above quote) in order to correct Aldaris?

You can argue that he should have dropped everything he was doing as soon as he found out and told them but the game makes it clear that communication isn’t easy for him and that he’s stranded and getting destroyed.

So Tass only discovered the truth sometime between Into the Flames and Choosing Sides? I wonder how he came to that considering that he was losing/stuck on Char and all the Swarm went to Aiur. The only fanon I can come up to explain this is that after telling Aldaris, somehow Tass went to go kill some cerebrate that didn't go to Aiur with Khalai energy and then realised he couldn't kill it. Even if I accept that, I then have to consider why the Overmind would leave a lone cerebrate knowing that they're vulnerable to DT. It's beyond my reckoning and requires endless fanon to justify the position that he didn't know at the moment he told Aldaris in Into the Flames only to know later in Choosing Sides.

Or the other option is he still had no clue until Aldaris told him it didn't work, and he deduced the void requirement and his response on the spot.

If Aldaris' rebuke that Tassadar's information being useless (in that Khalai attacks were useless against cerebrates) was the illuminating piece of evidence for Tassadar to form the solid opinion that only DT could kill cerebrates, why does he state this opinion as if he already knew this information? I know it's probably due to Doylist reasons (to purposefully withhold information in order to make a reveal) but it makes Tassadar seem like he's trolling. No wonder Aldaris is so mad at him!

[Mislagnissa]

A friendly reminder: Please try to keep the thread on topic and avoid tangents. If you want to discuss something else, try the random thoughts thread.

[Nissa]

Then how does Tassadar know enough to make such an assertive statement (the above quote) in order to correct Aldaris?

I don't know for sure, but since Tassadar was likely still fighting Zerg as this was going on, it's possible he discovered it at the same time, and/or learned from the Conclave's outing.

Nissa - the main lesson learned by the Conclave was to be open-minded and not prejudge others. Banning humans from helping you shows they’d have learned nothing and would also be dumb, which I don’t want the protoss in my remake to be. The protoss need help from a legitimate military not “Raynor’s Raiders”.

Lol. The whole lesson of not pre-judging others is something an individual can learn, but not a government. Political history shows that relations between nations are far more complicated than simply "judging." The events of the past don't disappear, and there is going to have to be forgiveness for what the Protoss did to the humans before the humans are willing to trust. And, again, allowing humans to work alongside 'Toss to this extent provides humans a great opportunity to steal 'Toss tech. Which they will do, given the semi-cynical nature of true Starcraft.

Tass' crew didn't allow Raynor to come to Aiur because he was particularly powerful in any way, they allowed him because they trust him. At the point the invasion was going on, there were no apparent relationship between the Protoss and Umoja/KMC. There is literally no reason at this point for the Protoss to go, "Hey, y'all humans wanna come to Aiur and help us out?" All the Umojans/KMC know about the Protoss at this point is that they destroyed Confederate worlds, and possibly they had some minor conflicts with the 'Toss (accidental border infringement, space pirates doing their thing, encountering Protoss spies, small stuff like that).

Heck, for that matter, we don't even know the relations between the KMC and the Umojans. They might hate each other, for all we know. So while I support any attempt you make to create involvement for these factions, bringing them to Aiur is just silly. Well, unless you create a logical buildup for it.

[Turalyon]

I don't know for sure, but since Tassadar was likely still fighting Zerg as this was going on, it's possible he discovered it at the same time, and/or learned from the Conclave's outing.

Most of the Swarm, including the player cerebrate who was created to look over Kerrigan (I know this was later retconned to the PC cerebrate being killed on Char but I'm basing this only on what we were given at the time), went to Aiur. Would you believe that the Overmind left a lone cerebrate on Char knowing that DT can kill cerebrates, not all the DT were killed yet and even when the entire Swarm was camped there, Zasz was still killed? Like I said, Tass would've had to discover this (by killing another cerebrate to compare for definite proof) on Char somehow (if a cerebrate still happened to be around and considering how Kerrigan was tearing through the DT forces at the time) between telling Aldaris Into the Flames and the truth in Choosing Sides, which is only 3 missions apart. The explanation that Tassadar only learning the truth at the exact moment when Aldaris tells him his information was useless belies Tassadar's response to Aldaris feedback. When Tassadar states the Cerebrates can only be defeated by DT, he states it with authority and definite knowledge. It is not expressed as if he came to a realisation at that point in time.

So while I support any attempt you make to create involvement for these factions, bringing them to Aiur is just silly. Well, unless you create a logical buildup for it.

I think that's the point of Grad's version of the reboot. He wants to expand/flesh out what was already covered in Sc1. To better justify the significance of Raynor's/the Terrans assistance of the Protoss in that final mission, it does seem kinda odd that Raynor is supposed to be thought of a major contributor in the Overminds defeat when he was seen being in more dire straits on Char than the Protoss were. Unlike Tass, who has some authority, Raynor is comparatively a nobody with no connections.

I'm not sure how we can justify the KMC being involved, but I could imagine the Umojans being swayed by Raynor to lend some help given their independence and interest in the Protoss. As to the whether the mainline Khalai Protoss allowing Raynor/Terrans onto Aiur, well, I guess they're too busy fighting off the Zerg and Tass's insurrection to stop Raynor coming back to assist. Besides, Tass is the conduit for how Terrans are there in the first place so if he allows Raynor to go seek Terran assistance in this reboot/expanded Sc1 version, I'm sure he'd also allow the army he brings onto Aiur as well. Tassadar is already knowingly breaking all the ancient traditions and bringing the DT to Aiur, so what's stopping him from allowing more Terrans (who are willing to help) to come as well?

[Gradius]

The contention is not if he knows about it (since the quote clearly states he does) but rather when he knew it.

Sure, you can say that it's unclear when exactly Tassadar knows for certain it's DT that can only kill cerebrates, but do you really think that he actually didn't know when telling Aldaris in Into the Flames and then somehow became illuminated somehow 3 missions later in Choosing Sides when he makes that definitive quote? In that quote he doesn't even say something along the lines "well, maybe your attack failed because you didn't have DT" which would lend more credence to the theory that he "didn't know", but he seems quite certain with that quote.

It's also perfectly plausible that someone else told him about it prior to the convo off-screen. He's speaking authoritatively not just on the void energy requirement, but also on the status of the attack, which kind of implies he's already been informed by someone, but hasn't had the chance to tell Aldaris.

Indeed, there's even foreshadowing that Tass actually does know only DT can harm cerebrates from the get-go as he says this in Into the Flames: "Hear me, Executor, for I have learned much from the Dark Templar Prelate, Zeratul. The Overmind controls its minions through agents called Cerebrates. Strike down the Cerebrates, and the Swarms will surely fall." Otherwise, why else would Tass preface the killing of cerebrates with him learning much from the Dark Templar?

I mean, so far Zeratul was the only one to have killed a Cerebrate that we know. And then he told Tassadar, which is what Tassadar just said. But I don't see how that really implies he knew for a fact you have to use void energy.

That being said, perhaps Zeratul should have known it from touching minds with Zasz and then told Tassadar? Still, that's not really implied to have happened anywhere.

So Tass only discovered the truth sometime between Into the Flames and Choosing Sides? I wonder how he came to that considering that he was losing/stuck on Char and all the Swarm went to Aiur. The only fanon I can come up to explain this is that after telling Aldaris, somehow Tass went to go kill some cerebrate that didn't go to Aiur with Khalai energy and then realised he couldn't kill it. Even if I accept that, I then have to consider why the Overmind would leave a lone cerebrate knowing that they're vulnerable to DT. It's beyond my reckoning and requires endless fanon to justify the position that he didn't know at the moment he told Aldaris in Into the Flames only to know later in Choosing Sides.

He doesn't even have to test it on a Cerebrate on Char, he just needs to find out from someone that the Khalai attack failed and the cerebrate was revived, at which point he can add 2 + 2.

If Aldaris' rebuke that Tassadar's information being useless (in that Khalai attacks were useless against cerebrates) was the illuminating piece of evidence for Tassadar to form the solid opinion that only DT could kill cerebrates, why does he state this opinion as if he already knew this information? I know it's probably due to Doylist reasons (to purposefully withhold information in order to make a reveal) but it makes Tassadar seem like he's trolling. No wonder Aldaris is so mad at him!

I mean, it sounds like someone told him about the attack. But if you believe protoss are hyper-intelligent, he could have deduced all this stuff on the spot as soon as Aldaris told him.

Lol. The whole lesson of not pre-judging others is something an individual can learn, but not a government. Political history shows that relations between nations are far more complicated than simply "judging." The events of the past don't disappear, and there is going to have to be forgiveness for what the Protoss did to the humans before the humans are willing to trust. And, again, allowing humans to work alongside 'Toss to this extent provides humans a great opportunity to steal 'Toss tech. Which they will do, given the semi-cynical nature of true Starcraft.

It's completely plausible that the protoss who have looked down on humans for centuries would view them all as the same. Not a huge leap of logic to assume that if they can work alongside Raynor they can work alongside other humans too. Again, one of Raynor's people can steal 'toss tech too; see the doublethink going on?

The only requirement for working with humans is that it has to be something the protoss actually want; and when they're in deep shit from the zerg, they're going to want it, probably even pursue it. The idea that they'd rather have the planet infested by zerg, their people slaughtered, and their religious sites desecrated, rather than some humans step foot on it is just...irrational and mind-boggling. I don't get it. <_<

Tass' crew didn't allow Raynor to come to Aiur because he was particularly powerful in any way, they allowed him because they trust him. At the point the invasion was going on, there were no apparent relationship between the Protoss and Umoja/KMC. There is literally no reason at this point for the Protoss to go, "Hey, y'all humans wanna come to Aiur and help us out?" All the Umojans/KMC know about the Protoss at this point is that they destroyed Confederate worlds, and possibly they had some minor conflicts with the 'Toss (accidental border infringement, space pirates doing their thing, encountering Protoss spies, small stuff like that).

Heck, for that matter, we don't even know the relations between the KMC and the Umojans. They might hate each other, for all we know. So while I support any attempt you make to create involvement for these factions, bringing them to Aiur is just silly. Well, unless you create a logical buildup for it.

Are you sure you understand the core concept of a remake?

[Turalyon]

It's also perfectly plausible that someone else told him about it prior to the convo off-screen. He's speaking authoritatively not just on the void energy requirement, but also on the status of the attack, which kind of implies he's already been informed by someone, but hasn't had the chance to tell Aldaris.

So when Tassadar mentions in Into the Flames that he learnt much from the Dark Prelate, Zeratul and the key to defeating the Zerg was killing cerebrates straight after that we're supposed to understand that he didn't actually know that DT were required to kill cerebrates? Why would Tass not know about this if he had conferred with/learnt much from Zeratul then or why didn't Zeratul inform Tass properly before his speech to Aldaris in Into the Flame? Afterall, it was a longer time between the killing of Zasz and Into the Flames then between Into the Flames and Choosing Sides, so whatever information that should've passed would've been complete by the time Tass spoke to Aldaris. I mean if Tass was indeed ignorant of this one specific fact at the time of telling Aldaris, the issue of failed responsibility then falls on Zeratul as to why he didn't communicate this bit of crucial information earlier (it's that or Z did tell/imply it to Tass but he was too dumb draw the conclusion?).

Either way, it doesn't change the fact that whether he knew it or not or when he knew it, Tassadar sucks at communication - which was the main point I was making.

I mean, so far Zeratul was the only one to have killed a Cerebrate that we know. And then he told Tassadar, which is what Tassadar just said. But I don't see how that really implies he knew for a fact you have to use void energy.

But when you take that quote in addition to his clarification in Choosing Sides, there's an implication that he did know but just failed to communicate it specifically.

He doesn't even have to test it on a Cerebrate on Char, he just needs to find out from someone that the Khalai attack failed and the cerebrate was revived, at which point he can add 2 + 2.

Sure, but his response to Aldaris there does not come out/sound like that he came to a realisation/that he deduced this fact. If that really was the intent/what was meant, then Tass is indeed a shitty communicator.

[Gradius]

You’re still assuming Tassadar or Zeratul knew about the void energy requirement when the facts are that they’ve only killed one cerebrate and don’t have the luxury of testing all their theories. There’s no evidence either of them knew about it. Their thought process was literally "just kill the cerebrates, and you win." They either found out about the void requirement or deduced that the Khalai attack didn’t work anytime between into the flames and choosing sides.

Yeah, Tassadar’s response to Aldaris is an odd piece of dialog since it seems like he knows all about the attack. Tassadar trolling Aldaris or being a bad communicator isn't the only option though; he could have just been informed off screen or improv-ed his response on the spot. But there’s absolutely zero evidence he deliberately withheld information or mislead anybody.

[Turalyon]

You’re still assuming Tassadar or Zeratul knew about the void energy requirement

The Overmind and Zeratul shared information when the latter killed Zasz. If the Overmind knows then that only DT could harm it, it's reasonable to think that Zeratul could know this as well. Zeratul and Tassadar are in cahoots and the latter has learned much from the former about their Zerg enemies. Therefore, it is reasonable to presume Tass knows this also by the time he speaks to Aldaris about killing cerebrates. The "assumption" that the void requirement is known (it's actually more of a presumption than an assumption) is made because of what is there leads us to make it in the first place. In the absence of any other more obvious evidence, this takes precedence.

The subsequent and secondary issue of why Tass then didn't tell Aldaris about this void requirement if he did know could be "evidence" for him not actually knowing at all, but this conflicts with the presumption formed from the information I mentioned above. One can resolve this second issue more easily with an assumption: Tass just neglected to tell them for whatever reason.

Yeah, Tassadar’s response to Aldaris is an odd piece of dialog since it seems like he knows all about the attack. Tassadar trolling Aldaris or being a bad communicator isn't the only option though; he could have just been informed off screen or improv-ed his response on the spot.

You've just highlighted the issue in the first sentence. One is lead to presume more that he's a bad communicator or trolling or that he did know and not that he learned it sometime between Into the the Flames and Choosing Sides. If he actually and really didn't know/improv-ed his response/learnt it specifically between Into the Flames and Choosing Sides, then it's not clear because the only thing that can substantiate that is an argument from ignorance (Tass didn't say he knew already so he either did or did not in actuality). This stance is really more of an assumption than the "Tass did know" stance, which is more of a presumption.

But there’s absolutely zero evidence he deliberately withheld information or mislead anybody.

That wasn't my point. My point was that Tassadar sucks at communicating, whether or not he knew or did not know.

Having said though, given that the "he was informed off-screen/improv-ed his response badly" is an argument from ignorance, having "absolutely zero evidence" is a requirement for such an argument to justify itself. Therefore, in this context, it could be entirely "reasonable" to say that Tass did/did not deliberately withhold information or mislead, too.