Starcraft reboot ideas discussion thread

[KaiserStratosTygo]

"Why not just use sc2 though? sc1 editor is simpler but pretty much no one will play a map made in sc1 these days."

The SC2 editor is ungodly difficult, I've been experimenting with it for 7 years and haven't released anything beyond some skin packs.

If he's having trouble getting things to work in SC1's editor, the SC2 editor is definitely not recommended. (especially since he's even more hard on the Sc1 purist side than I am, and most of SC2's stuff doesn't look like or function like SC1's counter parts)

also, its not true anyway, there's plenty of people playing SC1 campaign content, including numerous people recording said content both big and small (me included) if he can get people like Jayborino or something to play his maps, hell have good exposure.

[ragnarok]

The SC2 editor is ungodly difficult, I've been experimenting with it for 7 years and haven't released anything beyond some skin packs.

Then how do you explain the people on SC2 mapster and their use of the editor? Seems they made it look easy

[Mislagnissa]

I was going to make a new thread in the vein of this one but then I decided to just re-post in this thread.

Nissa, I thought about ways to make you reconsider your position to leave SC1 as it is. So I am going to use the forgotten plot points from the manual as my support. See, under your position these plot points cannot be resolved even though I think they are much more interesting than the direction canon went. (Although I doubt anything I say could sway you.)

The original Starcraft manual introduced a number of plot points and foreshadowing that were never picked up the games. Rather than giving the story room to breathe and exploring the potential of these plot threads, Metzen decided to end Rebel Yell with the Dominion taking over and the protoss and zerg leaving for parts unknown. Starcraft 1 ended with the Overmind being killed and the protoss devastated, destroying any chance of a decent sequel. That did not stop Metzen from pulling sequels out of his ass and further forgetting these potentially interesting plot threads. Because of various plot contrivances and retcons, it is not possible to revive these plot threads.

For example:

• Protoss have a galactic empire... lolnope! they're irrelevant losers!
• Confederacy fights Pirate Militias... no longer possible because Confederacy was killed off in the first act (which wasn't planned, and boy does it show)
• Sons of Korhal seek justice/vengeance... ditto
• Umoja seeks alliance with protoss and overthrow of Confederacy... Blizzard turned Umoja into a joke
• KMC seeks to reclaim the territory and resources stolen by the Confederacy... ditto; the UED played a bigger role than both combined, and UED was nothing but a bizarre footnote
• Akilae tribe seeks to defend humanity from the zerg... because the war with the terrans was magically resolved in act one, we never got to see terrans and protoss really interacting beyond the plot of Insurrection (Raynor's alliance is a fucking joke)
• Ara tribe does not care for the fate of humanity... ditto; despite the protoss being genocidal, we never see the terrans seek vengeance
• Dark Templar show up and throw a wrench in Conclave’s plans... we got a civil war, but they never really interacted with terrans; Alarak had more interaction with terrans
• Zerg are trying to assimilate terran psychic genes before the protoss destroy them... Metzen forgot this in favor of jerking off to Kerry and turning the protoss into wimps

There were probably loads more but those are off the top of my head.

Metzen admitted that absolutely none of the events in the SC1 campaign were planned, and boy does it show. Having the first trio of campaigns end with the fall of Tarsonis, or better yet the fall of Antiga prime, would have given far more room for the plot to breathe and all these plot threads to be pulled in.

Insurrection is pretty much what SC1 should have been. It isn't perfect, but by limiting itself to a single planet it gives itself far more room to maneuver and explore its plot.

[Nissa]

Warning, young lad, I am both stubborn and happy to agree to disagree. I do not easily change my mind, as regards literary potential.

I'm not saying that Blizz never did anything wrong, I'm saying that I like Starcraft for what it is. The problem with what you say is that you act like the plot went off the rails after the first 1/6 of the story, when honestly, it flows pretty well from there.

Yes, it's a problem that they sort of disregarded the other planets the Protoss have/had, but we don't know all that much about the Zerg invading them, either. Even after BW, it was possible to bring in other Protoss worlds, explaining if/why Protoss are still there.

The Confederacy wasn't killed off. They were destroyed as a national entity, but as Duke states in BW, Mengsk wasn't exactly sitting pretty. Despite the conquest of the main Confederate world, people from other worlds and different loyalties were giving the Dominion a hard time. As a writer, it would be easy to say that some Confeds were biding their time while bigger events were going on. Remember, Duran claimed to be a Confederate. Given that people were working with Duran, it's entirely probable that this is the truth, though of course Duran was working with them for his own ends.

Sons of Korhal seek justice? What are you talking about? The Sons of Korhal are the little rebel force that Mengsk led until he destroyed the Confederate government, at which point he renamed them the Terran Dominion. They are not a separate group.

Umoja and KMC are not jokes, they are merely absent. Given the heavy Protoss/Zerg focus in BW, they were merely disregarded for the time being in favor of telling bigger events. Starcraft doesn't exactly have a good format for telling stories about every single faction at the same time. That said, it was perfectly possible for a post BW game to give them both the stories they deserve.

I do not understand your point about the Akilae -- Tassadar's faction was associated with humans, not the entire tribe. Nor was war with the Terrans resolved at this point. Tassadar chose to back off, and then there was war with the Zerg to deal with. It is presumable that there were fights between the Protoss and the Dominion (and KMC, Umoja, human space pirates) that the main story simply had no time to touch on. Since we're hanging out with the Zerg at that point, we the audience simply didn't get a chance to see much of the goings on between humans and 'Toss.

Ara did technically care about humans, sort of. They had that whole Dae'Uhl thing where they're supposed to watch out for "lesser" races or whatever. Their choice to get Chau Sara and such was based on the idea that destroying these worlds wholesale was better for both Protoss and Terran interests. Yes, it would have been interesting to see vengeance, but the main humans in the area were the Dominion, and Mengsk is too political to fail to realize that it's better not to fight with the Protoss, given the conflicts elsewhere. The Zerg are pretty dangerous, and revenge is for people who can afford to get it. So if vengeance happens, it will be because a faction either chooses to bind together and get it, or else a small group or individual will perform some act of violence in the attempt to disrupt human/'Toss relations.

Again, SC2 doesn't count. It is nothing. It is a forgery of the Starcraft we know and love. Remember that everything I say, unless specifically stating otherwise, assumes that SC2 does not exist. Also no, we had no civil war (and it technically wouldn't have been a civil war anyway, because a "civil war" is between two parts of the same nation, and the DTs are not in the same nation as the Khalai). There's plenty of time to include factional distress now, because of Kerrigan "resting" from her conquest.

Your last point is your own assumption. The Zerg do in fact assimilate psychic genes, and Kerrigan is the representative of this. She's the Overmind's pet, yes, but given that the Zerg invade Aiur not long after her infestation -- which, as you'll remember, is the entire reason for assimilating psychic genes -- it means that they have accomplished this goal, and are now ready to move on to the next phase.

I disagree. Starcraft didn't do what you wanted it to, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't good. I mean, if you hated the plot after it was only 1/6 done, then are you really a fan of Starcraft at all?

[Mislagnissa]

The six BW campaigns are not the plot of Starcraft, they are Metzen's version of how the story could go (with help from Phinney to prevent total disaster). It was never planned in the first place and was clearly being made up as it went along, as you can see by the plot falling apart after Rebel Yell and Metzen admitting precisely that in an interview. In fact he expressed embarrassment with how bad his early writing was.

Metzen's story suffers from shoving too much into a single game, losing all sense of scale, and shoehorning incongruous fantasy elements and mythic superheroes. The franchise had enough material to focus entirely on the Koprulu sector before the Confederacy was overthrown for multiple games. The conflict between the Confederacy and the pirate militias, the Ara and Akilae tribes... all of that was set up as major plot points in the manual and in the first game they are vestigial or forgotten.

If the story was rebooted, it could focus on its energy on the Koprulu conflict and explore all those forgotten plot points without having to write around the stupidity of SC/BW.

[Nissa]

1. No. The plot of BW did not feel made up as it went along. It was showing the rise of Kerri/the Zerg as a part of the second act of a story structure (ala Empire Strikes Back). There were faulty elements, but it made sense as a part of a three act structure.

2. Losing all sense of scale? Not really. This is a game with several multi-planet factions. The scale was already large enough to begin with.

3. Again, you're looking at it wrong. The game never stated that there was a problem specifically between Ara and Akilae, but rather Tassadar's faction and the Conclave, as a facet of the Templar and the Judicator -- both of which contain more than one tribe. Your use of terms not used much in-game is strange.

Your inability to debate the specific points of my arguments drains my ability to discuss this with you further. I come to this website in the hopes of sharing my love of Starcraft with other people. If you think 5/6 of the game is "made up as it went along," then why are you even here? It really stifles conversation when in every single thread you go on so insistently about Enumerate/your opinions, when all of us have perspectives we want to discuss. Please go write your own stuff, and appreciate that some of us are here to have fun and share something that we like, even if it is flawed.

[Mislagnissa]

1. No. The plot of BW did not feel made up as it went along. It was showing the rise of Kerri/the Zerg as a part of the second act of a story structure (ala Empire Strikes Back). There were faulty elements, but it made sense as a part of a three act structure.

2. Losing all sense of scale? Not really. This is a game with several multi-planet factions. The scale was already large enough to begin with.

3. Again, you're looking at it wrong. The game never stated that there was a problem specifically between Ara and Akilae, but rather Tassadar's faction and the Conclave, as a facet of the Templar and the Judicator -- both of which contain more than one tribe. Your use of terms not used much in-game is strange.

Your inability to debate the specific points of my arguments drains my ability to discuss this with you further. I come to this website in the hopes of sharing my love of Starcraft with other people. If you think 5/6 of the game is "made up as it went along," then why are you even here? It really stifles conversation when in every single thread you go on so insistently about Enumerate/your opinions, when all of us have perspectives we want to discuss. Please go write your own stuff, and appreciate that some of us are here to have fun and share something that we like, even if it is flawed.

I think the story we got is not good, too ambitious for the limited space it had, and that we could have gotten a much better story if the writers had limited the plot to just one or two planets at most and given the plot time to breathe and find itself. I find your inability to recognize this irritating. If you want a Brood War 2, there are numerous custom campaigns which do just that. Don't jump into a discussion with me about alternate histories with the sole intent of shutting my voice down. There isn't much else to discuss, to be honest.

Metzen stated in multiple interviews that he was making up the plot as he went along. He did not plan out the series before writing the game script and the story changed numerous times during development. Episodes 1 to 3 were written as a self-contained trilogy which neatly severed every plot thread introduced in the manual. Brood War was not planned in advance and Metzen made it up when the higher ups demanded a sequel, and it too is a self-contained trilogy. There are clear inconsistencies between the manual, the first trilogy and the second trilogy such that they don't really make sense as part of the same universe unless you ignore said inconsistencies. BW is full of plot holes that others have explained at length: the plot is ridiculous and breaks down under any kind of in-depth analysis.

The scale might be large in the abstract, but it's obvious that Metzen doesn't actually understand the scales involved. The games don't actually communicate to the audience a genuine understanding of how long skirmishes, wars or travel times should last. The times and distances are irrelevant and it would be reasonable to assume all the game events took place in however many hours it took to beat the game for all the difference it makes. For example, it took ATLAS 30-60 years to travel to Koprulu (and it was lost in warp space at the time so this may not actually reflect controlled FTL capabilities) and the zerg 60 years to travel there (from wherever they were at the time). In the games, it takes no significant time at all for the zerg to travel to Aiur or the UED to travel to Koprulu. Much is made about the Overmind's inability to find Aiur, but no-name pirate Schezar visits it off-screen with ease. In fact, the official timeline shrunk the time between Duke's defection and the fall of Tarsonis from a reasonable six months to an absurd month-and-a-half based on one statement in a licensed comic book released in 2010. At least, the wiki's timeline did and I have no idea if Blizzard kept a detailed timeline or updated it timeline to account for the comic.

The Ara/Akilae conflict over humanity's fate is written in the manual under the tribes section. It was replaced in the game by the Tassadar/Conclave conflict, which is fought over the khalai/nerazim schism. It would have come into play if the game explored the conflict in Koprulu, but Metzen arbitrarily decided to reduce the Koprulu conflict to the background of Rebel Yell. Raynor and Tassadar ally off-screen, which is much sloppier compared to exploring their interaction on screen.

The manual set up is clearly written from the POV that the plot of the game will focus entirely on events within the Koprulu sector and take advantage of the shifting web of alliances and rivalries foreshadowed by the faction biographies. This did not happen in the game because Metzen decided to rush right into a war for the fate of everything. Insurrection is pretty much how this should have been handled. Starcraft could have told countless stories focusing on the three-way war in the Koprulu sector if Metzen wasn't so absurdly ambitious.

[Gradius]

Mislag can say whatever he wants. But the Ara/Akilae thing seems like fanon/misinterpretation.

It's mentioned they disagree with each other in the manual yes, but the Akilae don't have a monopoly on disagreeing with the judicators and vice-versa... Who cares?

[Visions of Khas]

The Ara/Akilae conflict over humanity's fate is written in the manual under the tribes section. It was replaced in the game by the Tassadar/Conclave conflict, which is fought over the khalai/nerazim schism.

One could argue that "It was represented in the game by the Tassadar/Conclave conflict." Tassadar's particular solution to the problem is the Dark Templar.

[Mislagnissa]

Mislag can say whatever he wants. But the Ara/Akilae thing seems like fanon/misinterpretation.

It's mentioned they disagree with each other in the manual yes, but the Akilae don't have a monopoly on disagreeing with the judicators and vice-versa... Who cares?

You can say anything is fanon/misinterpretation depending on your POV. I think Metzen's campaigns are fanon/misinterpretation because there are numerous inconsistencies with the manual.

I don't like your logic here because it is the same sort of logic that kept the Umojans and KMC stuck in obscurity while pulling the UED and Tal'darim out of Metzen's ass. The manual said that the Akilae wanted to protect humanity, while the Ara didn't care for them. This is a perfectly serviceable plot hook for a schism within the protoss where those tribes lead opposing factions composed of members from many tribes who share the same views long before the nerazim show up.

One could argue that "It was represented in the game by the Tassadar/Conclave conflict." Tassadar's particular solution to the problem is the Dark Templar.

Good thinking, but I don't see it. Metzen's approach was sloppy and contrived: the terrans became irrelevant after Episode 1 because of his writing choices but he still forced in pointless cameos anyway. If he wanted the terrans to have a major role for the entire game, he should have kept the story set in Koprulu for the entirety of the game. Reading the Queen of Blades novel showcases how absurd the plot became.

The Revelations short story showed that Tassadar was leading rescue efforts on Mar Sara, so it would have been the perfect time for him and Raynor to team up and take the story in a completely new direction. Unsurprisingly this is never mentioned in the games. Indeed, Tassadar offering assistance on Antiga Prime was cut from the game because it introduced him too early or something, even though his appearance in the zerg campaign is equally jarring.

Again, Insurrection is my go-to example for getting all this right. You could have set the campaigns on Mar Sara and showcased the interactions between the Mar Sara Militia, the Koprulu Expedition and the Sons of Korhal.

Like, I don't know, the campaigns could have gone like this:

Mar Sara Arc
Terran: The Confederacy antagonizes the Mar Sara Militia, leading them to ally with the Sons of Korhal.
Zerg: the zerg hunt for psychics, bringing them into conflict with the Mar Sara Militia, the Confederacy and the Protoss. They investigate Confederate experiments and rescue zerg from enslavement.
Protoss: Tassadar, representing the Akilae, squabbles with Aldaris, representing the Ara, over the fate of the Mar Sarans. After rescuing as many civilians as possible, Tassadar incinerates the planet before the zerg can follow the dropships. He receives hails from Umoja and decides to accept their offer of an alliance, so they direct him to the SoK they are secretly funding.

Antiga Prime Arc
Terran: The SOK lead rebellion efforts on Antiga Prime, but Mengsk's increasingly morally questionable methods lead many including Raynor to rethink their devotion to the cause.
Zerg: The zerg presence on Antiga Prime is initially minimal, but increases when the psi-emitters are detected. The zerg speculate on the reason why the terrans did so, noting inconsistencies in tactics between the emissions on the fringe worlds and those on Antiga Prime. The Confederacy begins deploying enslaved zerg, though their efforts are crude and ultimately fail. Mysterious protoss wearing unknown colors appear and cause problems for the zerg, managing to assassinate several cerebrates (not permadeath, just regular death since cerebrates are replaceable in this AU) and delaying the zerg's invasion.
Protoss: Tassadar is alarmed to discover that psi-emitters have been activated on Antiga Prime and suspects the Confederacy is responsible, as they did plan on using zerg against other terrans according to black-ops intel. Tassadar meets Zeratul and they find common cause protecting the terrans, but Tassadar does not disclose this to Aldaris. The schism between the Akilae and Ara factions erupts into open violence. Antiga Prime is incinerated after Tassadar openly allies with the SoK.

Tarsonis Arc:
Terran: Magistrate, Raynor and Kerry are horrified by the destruction of Antiga Prime and try to reason with Mengsk numerous times. Mengsk later leaves them to die at the hands of the zerg.
Zerg: the zerg capture the ghost academy and infest the trainees, one of which is Raynor's supposedly dead son John. They capture Kerry and take their prizes to Char and other hive worlds (as they have been doing the entire time), not knowing they are being followed by the tal'darim cultist Ulrezaj.
Protoss: Tassadar and Zeratul are disgusted to discover that the SoK planted the psi-emitters on Antiga Prime and Tarsonis, provoking them to break off their alliance and help the Confederacy to avoid total government collapse. The Confederacy reorganizes as a client state of the Dominion, along with UP and KMC. Aldaris learns that Tassadar was colluding with the heretics and sends an inquisition led by Tassadar's battle brother Artanis (who is of age with Tass here, not half his age as in canon).

Or something along those lines.