SCLegacy Podcast?

[Gradius]

Please take off the nostalgia goggles. The problem with existing Starcraft lore is that every campaign after Rebel Yell has massive narrative problems.

Meh. Episode 2 and 3 were perfectly fine. The narrative wasn't perfect, but the worldbuilding was decent. It set up a good world for sequels to build off of. It was hard to screw up, but Blizzard somehow managed.

Episode 2 and 3 suffers from severe pacing issues. Objectives that would have taken one mission in Episode 1 to resolve now take two or even three. The victories feel like they go in circles or repeated setbacks rather than building up the plot like the victories in Episode 1. You could cut the number of missions by half without losing track of the main plot thread!

It's slower yes, but being "slow" is not a pacing issue. It's a pacing issue if it loses your interest and becomes unplayable because it's too slow or too fast, which doesn't really happen. That's how real life works, sometimes a lot happens all at once, sometimes not much happens.

Episode 2 introduces Kerry, plays her up as a messiah in the first eight missions, then forgets about her in missions nine and ten. She ultimately contributes nothing to the plot: her character is not used interestingly, her character arc from Episode 1 is not resolved, and as a unit within the campaign she may be ignored without making any difference (except her personal fight with Tass, which is an objective) because everything is done by the player character cerebrate. The plot of Episode 2 would be improved by replacing her with an army of psychic infested terrans who are actually instrumental in the war against the Protoss, game balance be damned.

How is her character not used interestingly? She's used as a commander against the protoss, and then is left behind to hunt down dark templar because that's literally her job and they are the only beings who are a threat to the Overmind. Then the epilogue text wraps up her arc.

Episode 3 does not really explain or resolve the heresy and civil war.

Yes it does. Aldaris admits he was wrong.

The Judicator's dislike for the Dark Templar is never explained in the game itself, so they come off as moronic racists more interested in hunting heretics than fighting a war against galactic space monsters!

The reason is that it's their law and religion. Dumb laws and religion exist in real life, and so do racists. This whole arc was an on-point commentary about religion.


And Aldaris believes they have corrupted one of his best commanders. He tried to listen to them by authorizing the attack on the cerebrate, but it failed and only reinforced Aldaris's racism.

The civil war is resolved far too quickly, with the Judicators just giving up after a couple of missions rather than really being convinced.

They were all killed, which is what was implied by Raynor asking if they'll bring reinforcements in "Eye of the Storm" and then they never do.

Part of the problems with Episodes 2 and 3 seems to be that the campaigns were written to follow a specific set of mandates. The writers seemingly had inordinate difficulty forcing the alien campaigns to conform, resulting in convoluted narratives compared to the simplicity of Episode 1. As far as I can tell, these mandates were:
each campaign from the POV of a specific race. This is probably the most constricting mandate, as it directly interfered with implementing the others.
fight against every race. In EP1 this was easy because the Terrans had civil strife, the Zerg were invading, and the Protoss were trying to halt the spread of the Zerg at the cost of human lives. In EP2 this required psychic dreams to lure Terrans to fight and a brood going feral to fight Zerg. In EP3 this required the executor to visit Char and fight the Terrans, since without the Zerg invading K-sec they had no reason to fight the Terrans anymore.
change planet twice. This felt organic in Episode 1 and played into the raising of the stakes over the campaign. In Episode 2, the transition from Char to Aiur coincides with a complete drop of the previous plot threads, most of which are not picked up until Episode 3. In Episode 3, the first and third planets are the same (Aiur). These feel forced in Episodes 2 and 3 and contribute to the plodding narrative.
space platform and installation maps.

I really don't see the problem. Yeah it's slow, but the dialog is also pretty damn minimal. It's the gameplay that takes a long time, but you know, StarCraft is a game and that's kind of the whole point.

In fact, the Amerigo mission is redundant because the Zerg already took the Ghost Academy on Tarsonis.

That's a real stretch. Obviously what they wanted was in terran science vessels, not the Ghost Academy. Or, the science vessel was just closer and more expedient to sabotage since they were already in conflict.

In EP2, Tassadar claims to have met Kerry even though this never happened (not even in the cut mission!).

So? There's a lot of things that happened in universe that we probably didn't see. Again, minimal dialog. This was 1998.

The inclusion of Raynor and Duke feels forced in Episode 2, requiring the plot device of psychic dreams because otherwise Terrans would not be involved. Their inclusion in Episode 3 remains equally forced, and Duke appears only to justify PvT.
align at least loosely with the cinematics, which were made before the script was finished.

Episode 2? I mean I agree that the dream was kind of dumb, but this seems subjective, especially since we have psychics and mind-readers in the setting anyway. Episode 3? Not really. Tassadar and Raynor both fought the zerg in the last campaign so it's only logical they'd team up. Duke, yeah sure, whatever. It's not like he has some huge effect on the narrative. I'm pretty sure it's also possible to not run into him and trigger his attack anyway.

The Terran cinematics were often unrelated, but the Zerg and Protoss cinematics were almost always tied to the mission they appeared next to even when it needlessly complicated the plot (often in tandem with other mandates).

Really? Most people complain the opposite, that the cinematics have little to do with the plot. The biggest problem is that the return to aiur cinematic was put into the wrong spot.


I agree that BW sucks because James Phinney left, but it wasn't that bad for video games. The drama was still superior to SC2.

[Mislagnissa]

Meh. Episode 2 and 3 were perfectly fine. The narrative wasn't perfect, but the worldbuilding was decent. It set up a good world for sequels to build off of. It was hard to screw up, but Blizzard somehow managed.

You give Blizzard too much credit. I enjoyed them when I was a child, but as an adult I am embarrassed by how bad they are regardless of technical limitations. I think the plot has loads of room for improvement in a remake or reboot, assuming we hire competent writers and don't blow the budget on fancy graphics.

It's slower yes, but being "slow" is not a pacing issue. It's a pacing issue if it loses your interest and becomes unplayable because it's too slow or too fast, which doesn't really happen. That's how real life works, sometimes a lot happens all at once, sometimes not much happens.

It's not slow, it's filler. Half the missions are just padding to give the campaign a 10-mission run time. They don't meaningfully advance the plot and could be easily cut to spend screen time on more important things, like giving context to why the Judicators dislike the dark templar that doesn't require reading the manual. This is 2017, we can include the manual exposition in the game now.

It's slower yes, but being "slow" is not a pacing issue. It's a pacing issue if it loses your interest and becomes unplayable because it's too slow or too fast, which doesn't really happen. That's how real life works, sometimes a lot happens all at once, sometimes not much happens.

Episodes 2 and 3 are structured completely differently than Episode 1, and in my analysis inferior. The writers clearly ran out of steam and did not devote nearly as much care as they did in Episode 1. You can tell because every mission of Episode 1 is a single battle or major objective, while Episodes 2 and 3 spend multiple missions fighting a single battle or following the same objective. After hearing "protect/transport/piss on the chrysalis" or "hunt/rescue/fuck tassadar/zeratul" a half-dozen times over just as many missions I got well and truly sick of it. They feel like the side missions in Starcraft 2 for how much I hate them now.

How is her character not used interestingly? She's used as a commander against the protoss, and then is left behind to hunt down dark templar because that's literally her job and they are the only beings who are a threat to the Overmind. Then the epilogue text wraps up her arc.

No she isn't. The plot text says she is important, but the player character does all the actual work. I recommend reading the fanfic Birth of Queen, which deconstructs (in the literary criticism sense, not the meaningless anime fanboy jargon) the plot of Episode 2 to display the exact opposite meaning to what Metzen intended.

Yes it does. Aldaris admits he was wrong.

So he claims, but there is no believable reconciliation. That sort of heavy stuff needs way more than a line or two of dialogue to do it justice. You seem to attribute this to the game being released in 1998, but I would attribute it to half the missions being filler that do not meaningfully advance the plot.

The reason is that it's their law and religion. Dumb laws and religion exist in real life, and so do racists. This whole arc was an on-point commentary about religion.

Really? The judicators were right about everything! The manual explains that the Dark Templar nearly destroyed Aiur with their uncontrolled psychic powers. Exterminating the Terrans would have stopped the Zerg. The Protoss were winning until Tassadar came along. This plays into the moral ambiguity of the original Starcraft by having no clear cut good guys or bad guys.

And Aldaris believes they have corrupted one of his best commanders. He tried to listen to them by authorizing the attack on the cerebrate, but it failed and only reinforced Aldaris's racism.

I am more surprised they did not kill even a single cerebrate before this point while they were obliterating hive clusters by the gazillion, whether deliberately, accidentally or as collateral damage. It's not like the brain bugs are the biological equivalent of the psychic towers used by Protoss to coordinate their forces, nexuses of immense psychic traffic that makes them darn near impossible to miss, present on Aiur in the hundreds of thousands at locations of strategic value, or actively trying to hack in the Psi Matrix as part of their plot to infest the Protoss. (/sarcasm)

You would think that the judicators' battle reports included a few hundred with footnotes saying "oh, and some brain bugs, torrasques, etc died in the crossfire. Killing them causes such and such abnormal result not seen with other Zerg. Maybe we should research this? If the Zerg replicated instant resurrection in all other warrior beasts, and we have absolutely no reason to believe they cannot since we know nothing about their physiology other than it being deadly to us, we would be unable to stop them."

The Protoss take the cake for stupidity, as it makes no sense for the Judicators to waste resources hunting down Tassadar when he is clearly just suffering cabin fever. It makes more sense to figure why the brain bugs are the only Zerg organism that is able to return from the dead (apart from Torrasques and presumably dozens of similar immortal monsters that should be cause for concern), combined with their other abnormal features like being the most powerful psychics in the Swarm. That sounds like something of far more strategic value, far more frightening implications, than the ramblings of a madman a gazillion light years away. I'm honestly surprised the Protoss have no apparent concept of psychic disruption despite using psychic waves for everything, even though the Terrans do and jamming is a simple concept known ever since the radio was invented. It's almost like the cerebrate subplot is contrived to force the Judicators to make the stupidest possible decision, despite having been completely right about everything else before and logically having a super advanced understanding of psychic technology.

They were all killed, which is what was implied by Raynor asking if they'll bring reinforcements in "Eye of the Storm" and then they never do.

Ain't that convenient? Everybody knows that every organized religion falls apart as soon as their tiny minority of leaders are killed off. (/sarcasm)

These sorts of plot holes and leaps of logic are all over the place in Episodes 2 and 3, at least compared to Episode 1.

I really don't see the problem. Yeah it's slow, but the dialog is also pretty damn minimal. It's the gameplay that takes a long time, but you know, StarCraft is a game and that's kind of the whole point.

Compared to Episode 1, the plots of Episodes 2 and 3 feel contrived and meandering. It's not about merely being slow, it's about entire missions being filler that could be reduced to objectives in other missions, or characters making blatantly idiotic decisions that no real person would make in their position with the same facts and lack of hindsight.

That's a real stretch. Obviously what they wanted was in terran science vessels, not the Ghost Academy. Or, the science vessel was just closer and more expedient to sabotage since they were already in conflict.

The Ghost Academy is where ghosts are studied and created, so obviously it would contain the research on them. Which the Zerg acquired when they infested the place, along with Jim's son Johnny. The Amerigo mission is filler which could have been easily cut and mentioned as a footnote somewhere.

So? There's a lot of things that happened in universe that we probably didn't see. Again, minimal dialog. This was 1998.

It's 2017 now. I will not accept those excuses when remakes and reboots are the norm now.

Episode 2? I mean I agree that the dream was kind of dumb, but this seems subjective, especially since we have psychics and mind-readers in the setting anyway.

Psychics and mind-readers that were never implied to be able to reach across exty whatever light years without a psi-emitter. Raynor and Duke do not meaningfully contribute to the plot, so they should really be cut. They should have remained in K-sec, doing stuff which they actually had an investment in. Starcraft dropped the ball with regard to keeping the Terrans relevant past Episode 1, and forgot that the focus was on factions and not specific characters.

Episode 3? Not really. Tassadar and Raynor both fought the zerg in the last campaign so it's only logical they'd team up. Duke, yeah sure, whatever. It's not like he has some huge effect on the narrative. I'm pretty sure it's also possible to not run into him and trigger his attack anyway.

Tassadar glassed the Sara System and many other planets. It makes no sense for Raynor to team up with him! That's like Einstein teaming up with Hitler because Hitler claimed he was only trying to stop an outbreak of E. coli.

I agree that BW sucks because James Phinney left, but it wasn't that bad for video games. The drama was still superior to SC2.

It ruined the Zerg by systematically destroying their backstory and motivations in favor of becoming Kerry's tools for her stupid, short-sighted, and inconsistent goals. At least the Protoss campaign paid lip-service to the khala/void schism, even if it played second fiddle to an absurd hunt for macguffins to power a deus ex machina on the homeworld of a nomadic tribe.

[Nissa]

Honestly, I kind of want it to be a post-mortem-machine. We talk about what didn't work in the SC2 trilogy, why, what could it have been going for instead. We compare that to things that did work back in the day with less technology. Explain that, despite Kerrigan being in a murderous frenzy in both HOTS and Brood War, her role in the former is much more engaging and interesting. I truly believe that Blizzard will change given enough feedback, but the podcast should exist regardless of that.

It should be a vehicle of catharsis. We articulate the intangibles of what made the original great, what was lacking in the trilogy, what we wish we had, etc. It's point is to assert control over something we otherwise don't have any say in.

Okay, I like where this is going. I think the downloadable campaigns are of arguable canon, so I don't mind discussing them. Likewise, I think the SC novels would be great to compare to the Star Wars and Star Trek official fiction policies, like how it's different from theirs and which is the best official fiction policy.

Ha, we're the biggest nerds of them all, aren't we?

Mags, please take off your singular opinion goggles. You're stubbornly insisting on your own version of things when the general consensus is that the story through BW was at least interesting and more or less character consistent. You can't compare 5/6 of SC1 to SC2. After all, if everything after the first 1/6 of the game is bad, then Starcraft is itself bad, storywise, and we're simply autopsying something that was never good in the first place.

But because most of us enjoy all 6 mission sets of SC1, flaws and all, please stop stubbornly insisting that we accept your view of things as absolute.

Oh, and the plural of "Judicator" is "Judicator."

It's 2017 now. I will not accept those excuses when remakes and reboots are the norm now.

Oh, by the by, story gaps are actually good. You can't complain about things not being explained up front for the audience, because all good storytellers, no matter what format, must not treat their audience like idiots. You can't explain everything for people, because people can extrapolate, and if you explain every detail, not only will the reader get annoyed with you, but you'll also waste a lot of pages on pointless exposition. For specifically Starcraft, it's a battle game, so anything that can't be related in a mission briefing or during a mission is impossible to tell. Short cutscenes can be used, and end game text is alright, but if you spend a lot of time explaining stuff that doesn't need explaining, you're wasting your time pissing off the player. Not to mention that gaps in the plot create places where players can speculate and create fanfiction.

In short, the audience likes to think about a story, and if you explain everything, they don't get to think about it.

[Mislagnissa]

Mags, please take off your singular opinion goggles. You're stubbornly insisting on your own version of things when the general consensus is that the story through BW was at least interesting and more or less character consistent. You can't compare 5/6 of SC1 to SC2. After all, if everything after the first 1/6 of the game is bad, then Starcraft is itself bad, storywise, and we're simply autopsying something that was never good in the first place.

But because most of us enjoy all 6 mission sets of SC1, flaws and all, please stop stubbornly insisting that we accept your view of things as absolute.

So you admit that SC1 has flaws? Progress! I advocate only that it be remade or rebooted with better writing to fix those flaws. Principally by aborting Queen of Blades in utero, not writing the Judicators as caricatures, and renaming UED to "Umojan Protectorate."

There is nothing wrong with admitting that something you like is bad or liking something that is bad. There is nothing wrong with demanding better. The sooner you realize this, the sooner you can start healing. The only reason that I criticize Starcraft lore and demand better is because I care so much about it. I weep for the retcons and plot holes that make Brood War a mockery of its predecessor, like Earth secretly watching K-sec for centuries or Duran stealing the Zerg's original goal. I weep for the Zerg, who lost their quest for perfection so that Kerry could crown herself ruler of the asshole of the universe even though her pet cerebrate did all the work. I weep for the hundreds of Protoss planets and alien races under their watch that were forgotten by Metzen. I weep for the massive Terran industrial machine that comes out of nowhere to recoup the devastating loses of the First Contact War in a matter of weeks. Arguments like these may me wonder whether I am the only person who cares about the lore. I wonder if those who share your opinion only want recapture the magic of playing Starcraft for the first time, and think that a war between Kerry's Zerg and Duran's hybrids will scratch that itch for you at the expense of the much richer lore that came before. But I digress...

I have typed dozens of paragraphs and cited numerous articles explaining why the story line of SC1/BW is flawed, why the fabled true sequel would end up going nowhere, and multiple suggestions for how to salvage the situation (including a timeline outlining a reboot linked in my sig and a treatment of Starcraft 3 as a semi sequel/soft reboot of the franchise in the universe discussion forum). Rather than complaining that I hold the "wrong" opinion, maybe you could engage with my assertions in a constructive manner? How am I wrong to criticize SC/BW and demand better quality of writing? Which part of my long and painstaking analysis is wrong and why? What would you suggest as an alternative?

Oh, by the by, story gaps are actually good. You can't complain about things not being explained up front for the audience, because all good storytellers, no matter what format, must not treat their audience like idiots. You can't explain everything for people, because people can extrapolate, and if you explain every detail, not only will the reader get annoyed with you, but you'll also waste a lot of pages on pointless exposition. For specifically Starcraft, it's a battle game, so anything that can't be related in a mission briefing or during a mission is impossible to tell. Short cutscenes can be used, and end game text is alright, but if you spend a lot of time explaining stuff that doesn't need explaining, you're wasting your time pissing off the player. Not to mention that gaps in the plot create places where players can speculate and create fanfiction.

In short, the audience likes to think about a story, and if you explain everything, they don't get to think about it.

Here's an excerpt from Birth of a Queen which engages in exactly the sort of speculation you suggest.

Some time later there was a sudden sensation that coursed through the Cerebrate. It came from the outlying hives in the uninhabited part of the planet Char. He shuddered at the familiar sensation, and from the way Kerrigan tensed he knew she had sensed it as well. Even as he sensed it psionic energy was tearing through the hives. Hydralisks were torn apart, mutalisks were shot from the sky.

With the bulk of their broods deployed to halt the terran incursions the enemy ripped through many lesser hive clusters before they were halted. Lesser Cerebrates were working to halt them. For the moment they had succeeded.

'Do you feel that Cerebrate?' she asked 'The protoss are here. On Char. They have been for some time… hiding.' She motioned and sent forth a psionic call. 'Protoss Commander, it was folly of you to come here! For I am Kerrigan and I am Queen of the Zerg!'

'I know of you well, O Queen of the Zerg.' said a mocking voice. 'For we have met before. I am Tassadar of the Templar, I remember your selfless exploits defending humanity from the zerg. Unfortunate to see that one who was once so honorable and full of life, should succumb to the twisted wiles of the Overmind.' His voice was disappointed, as though Kerrigan had been undergoing a test and failed it quite spectacularly.

'Do not presume to judge me, Templar.' snapped Kerrigan 'You'll find my powers are more than a match for yours. In fact, I sense that your vaunted power has diminished since last we met.'

'Mayhap O Queen,' came the reply 'or perhaps I merely need not flaunt my power in such an infantile test of will.'

'Foolish Templar, prepare your defenses.' said Kerrigan 'I will come for you soon.'

Then the channel was cut and they were in silence. The Cerebrate looked up. 'Do you think protoss have a different definition of honor from terrans?'

'What?' said Kerrigan.

'Well I mean Tassadar called you honorable, but that just doesn't add up.' replied the Cerebrate 'Unless I'm mistaken you were a ruthless professional assassin who attacked by stealth without defiance sent, which is generally considered dishonorable.'

'Well I was still fighting the zerg-' she began.

'Don't listen to him Kerry!' said the Cerebrate 'You never defended humanity against the zerg. Your primary contribution to Mengsk's campaign was spreading discord throughout Antiga Prime and helping create a terran civil was while we walked in unopposed. Raynor and Calabas were the ones who destroyed all the zerg hives, not you.'

'I was too involved in the campaign against the zerg.' said Kerrigan, seeming annoyed for reasons beyond his comprehension.

'Really? How?' asked the Cerebrate.

Kerrigan remained silent for a moment, looking down at her feet. '…Well, I was in charge of organizing the militia.'

'To do what?' asked the Cerebrate.

'To hold ground that the Sons of Korhal and Alpha Squadron had already taken.' she said.

'Okay, so you did have some slight effect on the swarm. And that was pretty bad.' said the Cerebrate 'But you were all in favor of luring the zerg down onto Antiga Prime and letting us kill everyone while the Sons of Korhal cut and run. Your heart was in the right place.

Also very pragmatic.'

'Do you have a point Cerebrate?'

'My point is that Tassadar is wrong about you.' said the Cerebrate 'Absolutely. You did not defend humanity against the swarm. You were not honorable. And if anything you were a huge help to us by raising rebellion during our invasion.'

'Are you insinuating that I am incompetent?' she asked, an edge in her tone.

'It was a compliment.' said the Cerebrate. 'Also you've never met Tassadar before this point.'

'Yes I have.' said Kerrigan 'It was…' She faltered.

'He spent the entire campaign in the terran sector eradicating worlds from on high.' said the Cerebrate. 'He never directly entered the combat until Tarsonis, and you weren't even on the planet at the time. There is, quite literally, no period of time where you could have possibly met Tassadar. It simply doesn't exist.'

'…Can we just get on with this, okay.' said Kerrigan 'I just felt like I knew him. Or like some part of me did. Like… he had always been there. And I didn't exactly think it was me talking.'

'Those are called paranoid delusions, Kerry.' said the Cerebrate 'Your Overlord awaits.'

As you can plainly see, the entire briefing of the mission "dark templar" is deconstructed by simple application of critical thought. Plot holes like this are what I am referring to, among other problems, when I say that the narratives of Episodes 2 and 3 are lacking.

[Gradius]

You give Blizzard too much credit. I enjoyed them when I was a child, but as an adult I am embarrassed by how bad they are regardless of technical limitations. I think the plot has loads of room for improvement in a remake or reboot, assuming we hire competent writers and don't blow the budget on fancy graphics.

Embarrassed? That's ridiculous. It's decent for video games, especially video games from 1998. How many video games have you played? And as I've said multiple times, I want a reboot too.

It's not slow, it's filler. Half the missions are just padding to give the campaign a 10-mission run time. They don't meaningfully advance the plot and could be easily cut to spend screen time on more important things, like giving context to why the Judicators dislike the dark templar that doesn't require reading the manual.

Episodes 2 and 3 are structured completely differently than Episode 1, and in my analysis inferior. The writers clearly ran out of steam and did not devote nearly as much care as they did in Episode 1. You can tell because every mission of Episode 1 is a single battle or major objective, while Episodes 2 and 3 spend multiple missions fighting a single battle or following the same objective. After hearing "protect/transport/piss on the chrysalis" or "hunt/rescue/fuck tassadar/zeratul" a half-dozen times over just as many missions I got well and truly sick of it. They feel like the side missions in Starcraft 2 for how much I hate them now.

Ok, not much happens, I agree, but again, so what? Seriously, look at other RTS games. Universe at War Earth Assault, which is one of the top 5 RTS stories IMO, is sluggish af and it's from 2007.

In 1997, developing the game itself was hard enough and the story wasn't meant to be Shakespeare but rather a series of excuses for you to go in and roll the enemy base. That's why I want a reboot, it could be so much more with a modern company's resources.

No she isn't. The plot text says she is important, but the player character does all the actual work. I recommend reading the fanfic Birth of Queen, which deconstructs (in the literary criticism sense, not the meaningless anime fanboy jargon) the plot of Episode 2 to display the exact opposite meaning to what Metzen intended.

The player character does all the work because it's a video game and every video game makes the player feel powerful. Kerrigan still did her designated job, even though it's not the job from the manual.

I think we were supposed to infer that her inclusion in the swarm boosted other strains as well since she was a "success", but that's just my headcanon.

So he claims, but there is no believable reconciliation. That sort of heavy stuff needs way more than a line or two of dialogue to do it justice. You seem to attribute this to the game being released in 1998,

Seems completely subjective. Aldaris's apology hit me in the feels. He admitted he was wrong, and that's all I needed.

but I would attribute it to half the missions being filler that do not meaningfully advance the plot.

You're not selling anyone on this "the game sucks because it has filler" argument. Everything has filler. DBZ has filler. Game of Thrones has filler. Both are entertaining as hell, which is the ultimate benchmark.

At no point is "everything has to move the plot forward 100% of the time at a fast rate" a requirement for good writing. That's something you arbitrarily decided needs to happen. It's good when it does, but it's not bad when it doesn't, unless it's really drawn out. This is especially true for a game like SC because all that was really needed back in 1998 was an excuse to steamroll the computer's base.

Likewise, the UED gets shat on all the time because they disappear as quickly as they appear, which YOU should enjoy because the plot is moving fast and has lots of momentum.

Really? The judicators were right about everything! The manual explains that the Dark Templar nearly destroyed Aiur with their uncontrolled psychic powers. Exterminating the Terrans would have stopped the Zerg. The Protoss were winning until Tassadar came along. This plays into the moral ambiguity of the original Starcraft by having no clear cut good guys or bad guys.

You just called them moronic space racists, but now you're saying they were right about everything. Which one is it?

Also:
1) The dark templar nearly destroyed Aiur but it was the Conclave's prejudice that led them to that in the first place.
2) Exterminating the terrans was genocide and there's no proof it would have stopped the zerg.
3) The zerg still would have beaten the protoss in a war of attrition. Dark Templar were a requirement to win.

I am more surprised they did not kill even a single cerebrate before this point while they were obliterating hive clusters by the gazillion, whether deliberately, accidentally or as collateral damage. It's not like the brain bugs are the biological equivalent of the psychic towers used by Protoss to coordinate their forces, nexuses of immense psychic traffic that makes them darn near impossible to miss, present on Aiur in the hundreds of thousands at locations of strategic value, or actively trying to hack in the Psi Matrix as part of their plot to infest the Protoss. (/sarcasm)

You would think that the judicators' battle reports included a few hundred with footnotes saying "oh, and some brain bugs, torrasques, etc died in the crossfire. Killing them causes such and such abnormal result not seen with other Zerg. Maybe we should research this? If the Zerg replicated instant resurrection in all other warrior beasts, and we have absolutely no reason to believe they cannot since we know nothing about their physiology other than it being deadly to us, we would be unable to stop them."

Explained pretty clearly in the game:

"For attacking defenseless Cerebrates is not the way of true Protoss warriors! We shall overcome the entire Swarm with the might and the fury that is our heritage!"

And where are you getting the idea that there's "hundreds" of Cerebrates? There's a handful in the manual, and it would make sense for them to be hidden away deep in zerg territory. The onus is on you to prove that there's a contradiction. Making stuff up and saying this is how something should have happened is not how literary critique works.

The Protoss take the cake for stupidity, as it makes no sense for the Judicators to waste resources hunting down Tassadar when he is clearly just suffering cabin fever. It makes more sense to figure why the brain bugs are the only Zerg organism that is able to return from the dead (apart from Torrasques and presumably dozens of similar immortal monsters that should be cause for concern), combined with their other abnormal features like being the most powerful psychics in the Swarm.

This would be a valid argument if the writers weren't aware of this. Aldaris believes the dark templar are the bigger threat and winning the war, but Tassadar points out how stupid this is.

As far as I'm concerned, all the Conclave's stupidity is pretty much impervious to critique because there's a Watsonian & Doylist justification for it (wink at Turalyon ). Characters in universe point out what blind religious zealots they are, which shows that the writers are aware of this and they constructed the arc competently as part of their critique on religion. Contrast this to SC2 where the writers see no problem with and nobody ever says anything about getting the bomb out of Tychus's suit, or Kerrigan being a mass murderer, or Raynor slaughtering protoss for money, or the dozen other screwups.

That sounds like something of far more strategic value, far more frightening implications, than the ramblings of a madman a gazillion light years away. I'm honestly surprised the Protoss have no apparent concept of psychic disruption despite using psychic waves for everything, even though the Terrans do and jamming is a simple concept known ever since the radio was invented. It's almost like the cerebrate subplot is contrived to force the Judicators to make the stupidest possible decision, despite having been completely right about everything else before and logically having a super advanced understanding of psychic technology.

You get that it's never explained how any of this crap works, and that for all intents and purposes you're just making stuff up, right? Psychic waves =/= radio waves. Maybe they could make a psi disruptor, but again, they believe that doing anything less than fighting the swarm in pitched combat is dishonorable. That's kind of the whole point of their warrior culture. Are you sure you get the protoss? They ruled the galaxy for millenia and have a lot of pride and ego invested in their methods, making them impervious to change.

What is the problem with the Judicators previously being right about everything and then making a mistake? This is what's so inconceivable to you? Come on... -_-

Ain't that convenient? Everybody knows that every organized religion falls apart as soon as their tiny minority of leaders are killed off. (/sarcasm)

These sorts of plot holes and leaps of logic are all over the place in Episodes 2 and 3, at least compared to Episode 1.

This isn't a plot hole, this sounds like you just don't get the plot. Nobody ever said the religion fell apart, they said "the Conclave has witnessed your defeat of the Cerebrate. They know now that they cannot deny the necessity or the valiancy of your actions." You can't say "they weren't convinced" when the dialog clearly demonstrates that they were.

Compared to Episode 1, the plots of Episodes 2 and 3 feel contrived and meandering. It's not about merely being slow, it's about entire missions being filler that could be reduced to objectives in other missions, or characters making blatantly idiotic decisions that no real person would make in their position with the same facts and lack of hindsight.

Yes, it's got filler. And I agree it has moments that need filling out, which is why I want a reboot. But you've shown pretty much no evidence of these "blatantly idiotic decisions."

The Ghost Academy is where ghosts are studied and created, so obviously it would contain the research on them. Which the Zerg acquired when they infested the place, along with Jim's son Johnny. The Amerigo mission is filler which could have been easily cut and mentioned as a footnote somewhere.

You seem to have a huge misconception about how debates work. If you're going to make a claim that there's a plot hole, then you need evidence that there's a contradiction somewhere. Nowhere does it say and you have no proof that what they need is at the ghost academy and not contained in terran science vessels. You need to go find that evidence otherwise you're basically just making stuff up.

It's 2017 now. I will not accept those excuses when remakes and reboots are the norm now.

Yes...I agree with you. Bring on the reboot.

Psychics and mind-readers that were never implied to be able to reach across exty whatever light years without a psi-emitter.

Kerrigan is a supercharged zerg warrior, not a mere terran ghost anymore, so what's your point? I'm sorry, but when Kerrigan's power is built up over several missions you don't really get to complain that she's not powerful enough to do something. Especially since to you, having more missions is a "pacing issue" and "filler".

Either way, the swarm can issue orders to minions over multiple light years, and Kerrigan is part of the swarm now. Again, if you claim that this is a plothole, the onus is on you to demonstrate how this is impossible.

Raynor and Duke do not meaningfully contribute to the plot, so they should really be cut.

Says who? Find me a publisher's website that has "everything irrelevant to the plot needs to be cut out" as one of the requirements for their publishing standards.

They should have remained in K-sec, doing stuff which they actually had an investment in. Starcraft dropped the ball with regard to keeping the Terrans relevant past Episode 1, and forgot that the focus was on factions and not specific characters.

Yeah I would have liked to see more Terrans in episode 3. If not Mengsk, then at least Umojans. It's dumb that Raynor's rag-tag forces got obliterated but somehow he made a difference on Aiur. In my reboot, I'd have him join forces with the Umojans or Kel-Morians and have them help on Aiur as well.

Tassadar glassed the Sara System and many other planets. It makes no sense for Raynor to team up with him! That's like Einstein teaming up with Hitler because Hitler claimed he was only trying to stop an outbreak of E. coli.

False analogy, the zerg are more analogous to Hitler. Raynor doesn't get an option! He's stuck on the planet and so is Tassadar, but Tassadar is better at fighting Zerg. Fighting zerg is the one thing they have in common.

Also, way to completely ignore the context that Tassadar was remorseful for attacking the terran worlds and that someone else would have done it he hadn't.

It ruined the Zerg by systematically destroying their backstory and motivations in favor of becoming Kerry's tools for her stupid, short-sighted, and inconsistent goals.

Kerrigan is my most-hated character, but it wasn't "ruined" until Metzen decided there could be no more Cerebrates. And the fact that characters had to be idiots for her to win. Still, at least it was fun to watch/play, unlike HoTS where Kerrigan murders millions of people and still gets treated like a hero.

[Turalyon]

Such glorious walls of text!

All-in-all though, I'm on the same consensus with Grad here. Misla does seem to be too affected by subjective bias in his critiques. The apparent inconsistencies and oddities he points out are really interesting cases of fridge logic to be sure and they do sometimes expose the narrative conceit behind it all, but they don't thoroughly break the story in such a way that it ultimately feels like a jumbled mess or mere whimsy as he deems to suggest.

The story of Sc1 isn't technically perfect, which no-one has ever claimed and everyone knows that. What positives it does have, was that it was serviceable/simplistic (for the medium in which it was working in), had sustained momentum, used tropes effectively, was genuinely moving in places and had moments worthy of being memorable. These in themselves is a lot to ask for without also having to delve into more semantic issues like plotting, structure and world-building.

As far as I'm concerned, all the Conclave's stupidity is pretty much impervious to critique because there's a Watsonian & Doylist justification for it (wink at Turalyon ).

You have my regards.

[Mislagnissa]

I am glad we are able to agree that the original story deserves a reboot with expansion, even if you are much more forgiving of anything tainted by Metzen than I am. I have posted a new thread for SC1 critique/rebooting to avoid cluttering the SC2 critique threads.

Let's keep this thread limited to SC2 critique, shall we? Let's make more lists of things that Blizzard did wrong in SC2. That's always fun!

The Taldarim, for example, make more sense as a tribe of Nerazim rather than a wholly new ethnic group and give more weight to the Judicators' prejudice toward them. Starcraft, at least originally, was about faction politics and moral ambiguity. LotV tried to explore this, but Amon wasted screen time.

[Nissa]

So you admit that SC1 has flaws? Progress!

Um, I've literally posted a couple of days ago that SC1 has flaws. Do you actually read my posts? You have points, it's that you don't seem to get what I'm saying. I'm saying that on the whole, I found the story satisfactory, and that I am not inclined to chop off the story past the first one-sixth of it. Have fun critiquing it, if it makes you happy, but most of us feel it's more or less solid storytelling for the time.

Also, you can't tell us to stick to critiquing SC2 when you're the one who brought up SC1. Honestly though, it's fine to critique SC1 here, if you really want to. This thread is about what would go into a potential podcast, so maybe Undead could have a podcast where you're the guest, and you explain your opinion properly. After all, opinions can be interesting, even when they're wrong. Though I personally think handling each flaw separately is a better idea, because that would create discussion for each individual problem.

Seriously, both games have their story flaws, but this is video gaming. It's not there primarily to tell a story. Honestly, the story entertained me, and despite its flaws, it had a very tight tonal presentation. The rednecks were proper rednecks, Mengsk was beautifully villainous in all his appearances, Zeratul was particularly well handled, and the tension was way up in the 10s by the end of it all. Good times were had.

Edit: Oh, and if you're wondering what I'm talking about with Zeratul, his transition from SC to BW is really interesting, in my opinion. The thing about Zeratul is that he's not a leader of a large number of people. He's the sort of operative you send to do a very specific thing (kill a cerebrate, rescue Tassadar) and Tassadar and Fenix are making the bigger strategic decisions. So when both of them are unavailable, and the Matriarch, the person that Zeratul trusts mosts, is captured, Zeratul struggles to handle larger decisions with bigger consequences. I like that we see this side of him, because it defines what he is and what he is not. He is, a quiet, detailed thinker, not a grandiose leader of many civilians.

[Mislagnissa]

Um, I've literally posted a couple of days ago that SC1 has flaws. Do you actually read my posts? You have points, it's that you don't seem to get what I'm saying. I'm saying that on the whole, I found the story satisfactory, and that I am not inclined to chop off the story past the first one-sixth of it. Have fun critiquing it, if it makes you happy, but most of us feel it's more or less solid storytelling for the time.

Also, you can't tell us to stick to critiquing SC2 when you're the one who brought up SC1. Honestly though, it's fine to critique SC1 here, if you really want to. This thread is about what would go into a potential podcast, so maybe Undead could have a podcast where you're the guest, and you explain your opinion properly. After all, opinions can be interesting, even when they're wrong. Though I personally think handling each flaw separately is a better idea, because that would create discussion for each individual problem.

Seriously, both games have their story flaws, but this is video gaming. It's not there primarily to tell a story. Honestly, the story entertained me, and despite its flaws, it had a very tight tonal presentation. The rednecks were proper rednecks, Mengsk was beautifully villainous in all his appearances, Zeratul was particularly well handled, and the tension was way up in the 10s by the end of it all. Good times were had.

Edit: Oh, and if you're wondering what I'm talking about with Zeratul, his transition from SC to BW is really interesting, in my opinion. The thing about Zeratul is that he's not a leader of a large number of people. He's the sort of operative you send to do a very specific thing (kill a cerebrate, rescue Tassadar) and Tassadar and Fenix are making the bigger strategic decisions. So when both of them are unavailable, and the Matriarch, the person that Zeratul trusts mosts, is captured, Zeratul struggles to handle larger decisions with bigger consequences. I like that we see this side of him, because it defines what he is and what he is not. He is, a quiet, detailed thinker, not a grandiose leader of many civilians.

If you read the timeline linked in my sig, you will notice that it follows the same rough order of events as SC/BW, except revised to maintain consistency with the premise of Starcraft as being about faction politics and moral ambiguity rather than getting lost in bizarre tangents. If you would like to have a more detailed discussion, I made another thread about that. My only contribution to the podcast in that regard is this: read the links in my sig. It already says everything that needs to be said about fixing Starcraft. If you would like to critique it, I made a thread for that. Enumerate, the title of the revision project I mentioned, really deserves its own thread, its own podcast given how huge it is.

[Nissa]

And, given that I just said that your topic should have its own podcast, I think perhaps maybe you didn't read my post.

Mm'kay.