SCLegacy Podcast?

[ragnarok]

Change to what? When the original motivation of your species is to conquer the universe and bring perfection to all, there is nowhere to go but down.

That is nothing but a cheap excuse for a nihilistic villain. In many ways even back in 1998 I felt this was flat on the zerg's part

[Mislagnissa]

That is nothing but a cheap excuse for a nihilistic villain. In many ways even back in 1998 I felt this was flat on the zerg's part

Nihilistic?! That word does not mean what you think it means. Nihilism is "the rejection of all religious and moral principles, often in the belief that life is meaningless."

The Zerg are the exact opposite of nihilistic. They have an alien religion and moral principles based on their evolution and consumption of everything before them. They want to achieve perfection, not only for themselves but for everyone in the universe they are planning to eat. They were even styled loosely after Christianity, and I doubt any Christian would call themselves nihilistic.

Thank you for destroying your own credibility in one fell swoop. Now I know never to take your arguments seriously.

[ragnarok]

Nihilistic?! That word does not mean what you think it means. Nihilism is "the rejection of all religious and moral principles, often in the belief that life is meaningless."

The Zerg are the exact opposite of nihilistic. They have an alien religion and moral principles based on their evolution and consumption of everything before them. They want to achieve perfection, not only for themselves but for everyone in the universe they are planning to eat. They were even styled loosely after Christianity, and I doubt any Christian would call themselves nihilistic.

You want to compare them to the whole White Man's burden during those colonial expansion times?

[Mislagnissa]

You want to compare them to the whole White Man's burden during those colonial expansion times?

Really? You invoke Godwin's law? Do you not realize that erodes your argument further?

The Zerg eat people. They eat souls! That's not comparable to anything from human history.

[ragnarok]

Really? You invoke Godwin's law? Do you not realize that erodes your argument further?

The Zerg eat people. They eat souls! That's not comparable to anything from human history.

Not eat souls LITERALLY. You need to remember that only a few hundred years ago, there was the whole "The bible clearly stated it was the white man's destiny to rule the world." Thus if you look at colonial expansion, the indigenous people's culture, religion, etc are altered by that of the white man. And unlike today where at the very least people would say if you're not going to leave those things alone, it's better to have a mix of the two, back then you have the white man FORCING their ideals onto the indigenous people, saying that everything they have is superior.

I considered this a "taint" on the indigenous people's souls, and you can consider it a contamination of their purity, in a way.

[Robear]

Just btw, manifest destiny and the white man's burden are two related but different things. This is manifest destiny (mildly racist political cartoon of darkness, native americans and wild animals being driven out by white american settlers bringing agriculture and infrastructure), this is the white man's burden (very racist political cartoon of the US and Britain laboring incredibly hard to carry nonwhite races in their empires towards 'civilization' at their own expense). Manifest destiny is also supremacist but the white man's burden has that paternalistic racism where it's a burden that white people have taken up out of the goodness of their hearts because it's the humane thing to do. At least manifest destiny is just like 'it's our god-given right so we'll do whatever we want,' instead of pretending it was a good thing.

If we're comparing them to Starcraft now I would say that the Protoss empire is more manifest destiny-ish, with their casual willingness to eliminate the terrans and their worlds, and their idea of Protoss supremacy. I don't think Zerg are analogous to either.

But also I don't recommend making these comparisons in a podcast.

[ragnarok]

Just btw, manifest destiny and the white man's burden are two related but different things. This is manifest destiny (mildly racist political cartoon of darkness, native americans and wild animals being driven out by white american settlers bringing agriculture and infrastructure), this is the white man's burden (very racist political cartoon of the US and Britain laboring incredibly hard to carry nonwhite races in their empires towards 'civilization' at their own expense). Manifest destiny is also supremacist but the white man's burden has that paternalistic racism where it's a burden that white people have taken up out of the goodness of their hearts because it's the humane thing to do. At least manifest destiny is just like 'it's our god-given right so we'll do whatever we want,' instead of pretending it was a good thing.

If we're comparing them to Starcraft now I would say that the Protoss empire is more manifest destiny-ish, with their casual willingness to eliminate the terrans and their worlds, and their idea of Protoss supremacy. I don't think Zerg are analogous to either.

But also I don't recommend making these comparisons in a podcast.

It's only a shame the whole manifest destiny and white man's burden tends to get blurred in too many fictional stories. Sometimes the worst things done were done with the best intents at heart

[Turalyon]

If we're comparing them to Starcraft now I would say that the Protoss empire is more manifest destiny-ish, with their casual willingness to eliminate the terrans and their worlds, and their idea of Protoss supremacy. I don't think Zerg are analogous to either.

Very interesting! I would tend to think the Protoss are less manifest destiny-ish because of their Dae-Uhl - their desire to not infere with lesser species - and actually have a slight bit of the "white man's burden" about them since they do this for the lesser races own good and that they do so only if its under their auspices/diligence. I'm sure the Conclave would've bemoaned how the "lesser" races under their care are ungrateful and disparage their activities - like they do the Terrans when they first encountered them.

The Zerg are very much so about manifest destiny when you consider the Overmind's motivations and religious overtones.

[ragnarok]

Very interesting! I would tend to think the Protoss are less manifest destiny-ish because of their Dae-Uhl - their desire to not infere with lesser species - and actually have a slight bit of the "white man's burden" about them since they do this for the lesser races own good and that they do so only if its under their auspices/diligence. I'm sure the Conclave would've bemoaned how the "lesser" races under their care are ungrateful and disparage their activities - like they do the Terrans when they first encountered them.

The Zerg are very much so about manifest destiny when you consider the Overmind's motivations and religious overtones.

I didn't think it was the Dae-Uhl, Tura. Back in SC1 you could easily see the Protoss' arrogance in thinking they knew everything and all the other species were so beneath them, like nothing more than mindless animals. It's not like the Protoss even gave a damn about the terrans anyway. This still held true by the time of SC2, as they simply weren't interested in terran affairs.

On the Zerg side, it wasn't so much as god-given right, but more that (via the SC1 lore) the Overmind felt that since he killed and assimilated the Xel'Naga, they were false gods and he was the true god, and that meant as an omnipotent being he was entitled to do whatever the hell he wanted

[Mislagnissa]

Very interesting! I would tend to think the Protoss are less manifest destiny-ish because of their Dae-Uhl - their desire to not infere with lesser species - and actually have a slight bit of the "white man's burden" about them since they do this for the lesser races own good and that they do so only if its under their auspices/diligence. I'm sure the Conclave would've bemoaned how the "lesser" races under their care are ungrateful and disparage their activities - like they do the Terrans when they first encountered them.

The Zerg are very much so about manifest destiny when you consider the Overmind's motivations and religious overtones.

I thought the Dae'Uhl was based on Star Trek's prime directive to some degree. It is not a direct comparison, since the Judicators are still enormous racists who think nothing of casually glassing inhabited planets and never got put on trial for their war crimes. #PurifiedLivesMatter #JusticeForChauSara #KillTheJudicators

I didn't think it was the Dae-Uhl, Tura. Back in SC1 you could easily see the Protoss' arrogance in thinking they knew everything and all the other species were so beneath them, like nothing more than mindless animals. It's not like the Protoss even gave a damn about the terrans anyway. This still held true by the time of SC2, as they simply weren't interested in terran affairs.

On the Zerg side, it wasn't so much as god-given right, but more that (via the SC1 lore) the Overmind felt that since he killed and assimilated the Xel'Naga, they were false gods and he was the true god, and that meant as an omnipotent being he was entitled to do whatever the hell he wanted

How did you possibly get that impression? The Zerg were quite aware they were not omnipotent or godly, as shown by their fear of the Protoss and their desire for perfection. They were not entitled to do whatever they wanted or that the xel'naga were false gods or anything of that sort: the Zerg were driven by the drives the xel'naga had instilled upon them by manipulating their evolution, and their culture arose organically from that.

All three factions are monstrous, but believe themselves to be good and have redeeming qualities. If you cannot appreciate that the morality of Starcraft was ambiguous before all the stupid retcons you apparently cherish as gospel, then you have no place arguing about about the morality of the races.