Balancing ZvZ: Hydralisk's corrosive spines

[Pandonetho]

The thing about it is, it's pointless against anything other than the Roach in ZvZ because no one really cares about regeneration in general.

Against Protoss it really doesn't matter because their shields don't regenerate anyway unless they're out of battle.

[RamiZ]

The thing about it is, it's pointless against anything other than the Roach in ZvZ because no one really cares about regeneration in general.

Against Protoss it really doesn't matter because their shields don't regenerate anyway unless they're out of battle.

We are talking about Med-vac Dropship healing and HT recharge of shield ability, so it would be useful...

[Norfindel]

No, if the Roach has too much regeneration for the other Zerg units to be effective, this should be resolved by different means.
Roaches are Armored, just by giving the Hydralisks a bonus vs Armored, you make them more effective against them. Anorher one would be to make the Hydralisks Armored units, instead of Light, and change the Roach bonus vs Bio to a bonus vs Light, so that they don't get a bonus against all the Zerg.

[The_Blade]

currently the hydra is being moved back to thier 1.5 and with it the cost will be reduced.

I need to see this in game... too few information about the zerg currently.

[RamiZ]

No, if the Roach has too much regeneration for the other Zerg units to be effective, this should be resolved by different means.
Roaches are Armored, just by giving the Hydralisks a bonus vs Armored, you make them more effective against them. Anorher one would be to make the Hydralisks Armored units, instead of Light, and change the Roach bonus vs Bio to a bonus vs Light, so that they don't get a bonus against all the Zerg.

It solves some problems but it make another ones....If you change Hydras to get bonus vs Armored, then they will be far more effective and We wont see Lurkers in the game...and in second one, if you make that changes that are not small at all, you still didnt solve the problem that Roach got 15 regen and that Hydras cant easy Destroy that....That wont be problem for them, in fact, you just made Hydras harder to kill and Roaches are the same....Also if Hydras are Armored they will be killed by Siege tanks that do 50+50 vs Armored...You must watch other aspects of the game, no just one race...

[Norfindel]

It solves some problems but it make another ones....If you change Hydras to get bonus vs Armored, then they will be far more effective and We wont see Lurkers in the game...and in second one, if you make that changes that are not small at all, you still didnt solve the problem that Roach got 15 regen and that Hydras cant easy Destroy that....

Hydras have pretty fast attack rate, and are cheaper now, so that shouldn't be a problem to destroy the Roaches. It was mentioned several times that ranged units can destroy Roaches with ease when you focus fire on the Roaches, or if there are enough units. So, it's not like the Hydras need +500 vs Armored to be effective, maybe they even don't need any bonus at all, or a very low one.

That wont be problem for them, in fact, you just made Hydras harder to kill and Roaches are the same....Also if Hydras are Armored they will be killed by Siege tanks that do 50+50 vs Armored...You must watch other aspects of the game, no just one race...

I don't think that the Hydralisks were designed as counters to Siege Tanks, anyways. In BW, they're next to useless vs them.
With the modification, they would be twice as hard to kill for the Roaches, and that would change the balance quite a lot. But really, i don't think that it's even necessary to modify the Hydralisk's armor Type.

[Perfecttear]

I'm wondering does anybody know the frame attack speed of the hydralisk. I was told it's 1.45sec for normal attack speed and 0.86sec for fast attack speed.
The hydralisk has normal attack speed in sc2,and the roachs regeneration speed is 15hps and after the the Organic Carapace upgrade 25hps.
If you think about it:
Hydralisk does 9 damage per atack to the roach , this makes it do roughly 6 damage per second, if you compare that with the roach regeneration(15hps) , you find out that the hydralisk cannot even kill the roach since the regeneration is greather than the damage, hell even 2 hydras constantly fireing cannot kill a roach :s, and thats before the upgrade. You need atleast 4 zerglings to start doing damage to the roach, and even then they only do 2 dmg per second.

Or did i misunderstand roachs regeneration?


.

[mr. peasant]

Hydras have pretty fast attack rate, and are cheaper now, so that shouldn't be a problem to destroy the Roaches. It was mentioned several times that ranged units can destroy Roaches with ease when you focus fire on the Roaches, or if there are enough units. So, it's not like the Hydras need +500 vs Armored to be effective, maybe they even don't need any bonus at all, or a very low one.


I don't think that the Hydralisks were designed as counters to Siege Tanks, anyways. In BW, they're next to useless vs them.
With the modification, they would be twice as hard to kill for the Roaches, and that would change the balance quite a lot. But really, i don't think that it's even necessary to modify the Hydralisk's armor Type.

Erm... I think Norfindel's comments were aimed at your suggestions of giving the Hydralisk a bonus vs armored units and/or armored units itself; that such changes have far bigger consequences on overall balance and not just Roaches alone. Oddly, I find it weird that you're arguing against your own points/suggestions. :s

Also, regarding your comment on the Hydralisk's attack rate and that focus firing counters Roaches: This is not a specific counter to Roaches but a general one against all units. It's basically saying in order to kill something quicker, you attack it with more units. Pretty obvious, pretty basic a concept.

However, if the DPS/firepower is not sufficient, no amount of micromanagement can turn the tide against Roaches and kill them in a timely fashion. As a result, the outcome of that round is decided even before it begins regardless of skill, which in my opinion is not good. Compare to Zealot vs Stalker. Cost for cost, Zealots would normally kill Stalkers. But with Blink micro, Stalkers can take out those Zealots.

[ManjiSanji]

I think this could be a good idea; but could it be extended to any and/or all regeneration, including Terran Repair, Protoss shield regeneration, etc? This would make the Hydralisk a much more dynamic unit. The length of the debuff doesn't have to be too long, so that it's definitely gone shortly after combat or fleeing (10 seconds?), but enough to be a tactical hindrance.

[Whanhee]

Though it may not be useful vs protoss, in 2v2 (or other team matches), it can prevent terrans from healing their allies! :O

Also, would it prevent repairs by scvs? Seems a bit stacked as it prevents a terran from repairing his base while help is on the way...