Why do you suppose Episode II would have been like without Kerry?

[Turalyon]

You don't have to play the expanded universe campaigns in order, particularly since they take place non-linearly. The general idea is that the Great War is structured into a set of time periods and theaters, with any number of campaigns showing the nitty gritty details. While Raynor is fighting the Dominion, the Umojans are (still) fighting the Zerg, the Zerg are experimenting with Terran psychics on the hive worlds, the Khalai fleet is returning to Aiur for court martial, and the Dark Templar adventurers are testing their mettle against small groups of Zerg.

I see the appeal in all this, but this is all only possible if they had the time and money to do such a thing at the time. Sc1's plot had to be constructed with an appropriate economy of scale and with what we did get, it's a wonder that they were even able to introduce a whole universe, focus on three distinctly different sides that were in conflict with each other and create the illusion of there being more than there really is all in just 30 missions.

Of course exploring all these different things going on throughout time and space would take many campaigns that would involve a lot of play time or skipping through the campaigns you aren't interested in. This is how real wars work, after all. Did you find history books hard to follow because events happened to multiple countries at the same time? of course not!

I don't know. If we don't necessarily have to see it (because you're given the option of skipping it and that it's all just flavour/fluff anyway), it brings to mind whether it's even worth bothering to show, let alone creating it, at all. Starcraft isn't about real wars nor is it aping history. It's fiction and in fictional worlds, it's often more compelling to bask in a well-constructed illusion of there being possibly more than what we see.

Without personalities, the Zerg are boring.

Exactly. They're not human or even remotely analagous to humans and shouldn't be. The Zerg care not if you want to relate or sympathise with them because that's not their prerogative. If one is looking for something to sympathise within the Zerg, they're not really getting the idea/concept of what the Zerg represent. Their unrelatability is partly why I find them interesting.

Why do you think the only memorable parts of Episode II are the Overmind and Kerry? Why do you think Abathur and Dehaka are the only memorable parts of HotS?

To some, the Overmind is a boring, obtuse character with religious overtones and one-note personality. The Overmind is mostly memorable because of its voice and the grandiose manner in which it speaks more than its personality. Kerrigan is not a Zerg, but a human, even in infested form so of course she's going to have a memorable personality. Dehaka is only memorable because of his "giant hat" - his inane obsession with "essence". His personality is more often regarded as being infamous rather than fondly memorable. Abathur is interesting because of his robotic like alienness and efficiency - a distinctly non-human "personality" that one would expect from Zerg.

Why couldn't the Overmind do the same as it did with Kerry with the existing intelligent Zerg? The purpose of the Overmind is to prevent the Zerg from ever having civil war, not suppressing individual personalities.

Because there was no need to? The Overmind is the gestalt consciousness of all the Zerg - there is no division, they are all unified despite surface differences. That is why they were pure of essence and that is why they almost won in Sc1. The Zerg only lost in Sc1 because of the consequences arising from the Overminds decision to introduce the element of individual personality (in part as a means to procure psionic power to help it fight Protoss better) into their midst. If anything, it seems that the Zerg learnt the hard way that individual personalities are not helpful to the collective Swarm afterall.

Zerg could compete with one another to determine which strategies are more efficient, or simply for the fun of it. There could be numerous friendly or vicious rivalries that would erupt into open violence without the calming influence of the Overmind. The original manual even explains Gorn and Kagg as being vicious bloodthirsty monsters feared even by other Zerg, which could certainly be explored here (regardless of what you said about doylist vs watson). That's the reason why the alternate Brood War involves cerebrates attacking each other rather than being unified as they were in canon: without the Overmind to unify their egos, the Zerg will enter their own equivalent of the Aeon of Strife.

I tend to think of the Cerebrates as being aspects of the Overmind. They appear to have a life of their own, but it's really just an assigned role that only works/functions within the whole and for specific reasons. That was the point of showing us the consequences of Zasz's death and how we had to destroy his Brood and not just let it be. Without the Overmind, all the Zerg are unmoored and become bloodthirsty/vicious without rhyme or reason. That being said, I don't mind the possibility of the remaining Zerg cerebrates eventually evolving/developing individual personalities as a means to survive...

Kerry probably suffers from loads of guilt and PTSD.

You could certainly argue that Kerry would immediately become a murderous psychopath after infestation, but I find QoB to be an extremely bland and boring character. I prefer good!Kerry or antihero!Kerry simply because that's actually interesting.

I'd like to think of Kerrigan in Sc1 and BW as one entire character, not the distinct portions of her where she was good at this point or evil at this other point. She's clearly a damaged individual even when under Mengsk's employ and her initial naivete and "goodness" seemed unreal and forced for someone who has had to go through what she had. The tipping point was Mengsk's betrayal of her faith and loyalty. Before, she had no choice under the Confeds but she could with Mengsk. With that betrayal, she no longer had to hide under false pretenses anymore - there was no point because it would just lead to being used again. Her time being under the Overmind was another enslavement she had to endure. After the Overmind died, she probably realised that that enslavement was worse in some ways, because she was partially compelled to like her enslavement under the Zerg. Her murderous rampage in BW is desperate and paranoid attempt to avoid possibly being enslaved in any way ever again.

[Mislagnissa]

I see the appeal in all this, but this is all only possible if they had the time and money to do such a thing at the time.

Agreed. Fanfiction or custom campaigns are not similarly limited. I was really inspired by the Enumerate fanfic/campaign bible and decided to translate the canon campaigns into that framework. Episode II is the most difficult because Enumerate replaces Kerry with a multitude of assimilated Terran strains.

It's fiction and in fictional worlds, it's often more compelling to bask in a well-constructed illusion of there being possibly more than what we see.

Starcraft has an expanded universe which in many ways is much more compelling than the games. Those novels and comics and short stories generally have more consistent and believable characters and plot.

Exactly. They're not human or even remotely analagous to humans and shouldn't be. The Zerg care not if you want to relate or sympathise with them because that's not their prerogative. If one is looking for something to sympathise within the Zerg, they're not really getting the idea/concept of what the Zerg represent. Their unrelatability is partly why I find them interesting. .

I disagree completely. The shtick of the Zerg, that sets them apart from Tyranids and Pseudo-Arachnids, is that they have personalities. It says so right in the original manual. Any story a writer tells about Zerg will be boring if there aren’t any characters and politics. What I liked about the Zerg was that they had personalities to go with their utterly alien motivations rather than being a rapacious swarm like their inspiration.

[Turalyon]

Starcraft has an expanded universe which in many ways is much more compelling than the games. Those novels and comics and short stories generally have more consistent and believable characters and plot.

But the original Starcraft is what compelled and inspired the EU to even begin in the first place... I've never touched any of the EU beyond the short stories that were released in between and as lead up to the various Sc2 (and they were the best thing in terms of "lore" that ever came out during the period of Sc2) and still find things in the original Sc1 that compel me because you can observe it in many ways. The fact that I still, almost 2 decades later, talk about its story and can form equally valid but alternate positions on things in Sc1 without resorting to go to the EU for answers is a testament to how compelling it is on its own.

I disagree completely. The shtick of the Zerg, that sets them apart from Tyranids and Pseudo-Arachnids, is that they have personalities. It says so right in the original manual. Any story a writer tells about Zerg will be boring if there aren’t any characters and politics. What I liked about the Zerg was that they had personalities to go with their utterly alien motivations rather than being a rapacious swarm like their inspiration.

It is a difference to be sure but I don't think that's the "defining" characteristic that sets them apart from the Tyranids. The main difference is that the motivation of the Zerg (or the Overmind rather) for their actions is much more esoteric (seeking an ideal of perfection) than just simply eating everything in its path for the sake of eating and growing. I don't mind them having personalities that clash with each other though, its just that all those personalities ultimately serve the same unbending cause that is represented by the Overmind. There won't be any real ramifications from such politicking amongst Zerg cerebrates nor will it be meaningful because those different personalities can't go beyond what the Overmind lets them be/what benefits the Swarm in its entirety. With the Overmind gone though, yeah, I can see how this might be an interesting path to follow (and would BW should've been about when it came to Zerg).

As to the Zerg being "boring". Well, they just are. Before Kerrigan appears in Episode II, you wouldn't call the Overmind, Daggoth and Zasz being interesting because of their dynamic and complex relationship with each other, would you? Even then, the only real character of import is the Overmind anyway. Introducing conflict within the Zerg (for the sake of making them more palatable to the audience) whilst the Overmind is still there makes them less alien and more human and relatable. We already have the Protoss for that. I don't want to feel emotions for the Zerg, it just wouldn't be right! That's why the whole retcon in Sc2 about spinning the Overmind into some sympathetic, noble and hero for its kind type thing rubs so wrongly. Thank goodness that that turned out to be potential bunk, since it came from the deceitful, untrustworthy and confirmed liar that is Ouros.

[Mislagnissa]

But the original Starcraft is what compelled and inspired the EU to even begin in the first place...

It is also marred by huge flaws. You cannot appreciate the story without reading the manual, and Episode II easily has the weakest story. I find myself compelled to rewrite it and recapture the magic of playing for the first time. Mapping is really difficult I heard, so my only recourse is to write fanfiction.

I don't mind them having personalities that clash with each other though, its just that all those personalities ultimately serve the same unbending cause that is represented by the Overmind. There won't be any real ramifications from such politicking amongst Zerg cerebrates nor will it be meaningful because those different personalities can't go beyond what the Overmind lets them be/what benefits the Swarm in its entirety.

Even the Overmind has its limits, as the biography of Zasz (other cerebrates find him annoying and unstable) and the Surtur brood (so bloodthirsty it is physically restrained until needed) attests. I am sure the Zerg take their politics very seriously even if they are incapable of deception or betrayal. We aren’t told very much in canon, but their hierarchy and culture is implied to be fairly complex. I can easily see cerebrates being deliberately set against one another to see which solution works better, like playing the SC2 evolution missions at once, or arguing over such things.

Introducing conflict within the Zerg (for the sake of making them more palatable to the audience) whilst the Overmind is still there makes them less alien and more human and relatable. We already have the Protoss for that. I don't want to feel emotions for the Zerg, it just wouldn't be right!

There’s no logical reason the Zerg couldn’t have that conflict millennia before Kerry showed up. The Zerg work as characters because they are both sympathetic and utterly alien. Their goal to achieve perfection by consuming all life is alien, but more importantly that goal sounds reasonable in context. Their personalities make them sympathetic to the audience and more than just an unfeeling alien horde. This is an example of great writing. Compare that to the Reapers in Mass Effect, who operate on nonsensical circular logic, or the Tyranids in Dawn of War II, whose campaign is literally a rehash of the imperial campaign except with all the dialogue replaced with some variation of “FEAST!”

[Gradius]

I think you could have definitely written cerebrates with their own personalities and conflict between them. The manual descriptions of each brood already provide a framework for each brood’s unique functions and directives. But Blizzard didn’t take advantage of this.

[ragnarok]

I think you could have definitely written cerebrates with their own personalities and conflict between them. The manual descriptions of each brood already provide a framework for each brood’s unique functions and directives. But Blizzard didn’t take advantage of this.

Did you back then believe there'd be the whole power grabs and jockeying for position back during the SC1 days? I certainly felt this could have worked in BW, but I'm unsure for SC1 itself

[Turalyon]

It is also marred by huge flaws. You cannot appreciate the story without reading the manual, and Episode II easily has the weakest story.

Without a doubt. I've never refuted any of these points.

As to not appreciating the story without reading the manual, well that's kinda subjective. A "crap" (be it pedestrian, simple or even nonsensical) story can still be appreciated if the characters and the universe is interesting. There's enough in the game itself to hook some people I'd imagine. But yeah, back in the day, manuals and the games were integral to each other in fleshing out the universe the game presents. I always hearken back to the game Homeworld in this matter. The game itself is a very basic story with only one character who really talks (the fleet command) and even then it's only to relay what's going on but the aesthetics of the game elevate it, making it a very surreal, dreamlike odyssey to go through. The manual is a thing in and of itself. It's filled with all the local history of what leads up to the start of the game and even includes entire passages devoted to the various families (kiiths) that are never even referred to in the game itself. You begin to wonder why they even bothered with this at first - and then you play the game and reach that third mission. The immensity of loss you feel when you get there is absolutely crushing if you had read through that manual before playing it.

Even the Overmind has its limits, as the biography of Zasz (other cerebrates find him annoying and unstable) and the Surtur brood (so bloodthirsty it is physically restrained until needed) attests.

Is it really a limit for the Overmind when all of it is still under the control of the Overmind?

I am sure the Zerg take their politics very seriously even if they are incapable of deception or betrayal.

Yeah but it's kinda ultimately meaningless on the audience member side when the Overmind is in absolute control. Sure, there's potential for chaos but it's controlled and expected chaos. There is no real threat of a cerebrate going rogue or that any of the distinct personality quirks would ever lead to something other than what the Overmind already intended. However, with the Overmind gone, I can really see the potential of such a thing.

I can easily see cerebrates being deliberately set against one another to see which solution works better, like playing the SC2 evolution missions at once, or arguing over such things.

Tyranids apparently do this as well because they lose no biomass in such exchanges and strengthen themselves from such engagements. Zerg though, even from their very beginnings, don't behave on a survival of the fittest type philosophy (like the Sc2 Primal Zerg apparently do ). They subvert it by parasitism and slowly subsuming their stronger rivals aspects into themselves. They steal, essentially, to better themselves. There is nothing to learn by attacking themselves.

Besides, each brood has a distinctive role that does not overlap with another cerebrates role but all work to supplement each other, so conflict would be minimal. For example, the Garm Brood is specifically called in as a primary assault force - to provide quick strikes and weaken enemy positions, whilst the Jormungand Brood follows up as the primary support force. The Surtur Brood is then called up if both Garm and Jormungand fail to win. We wouldn't expect, say, Gorn of the Baelrog (terror squad) Brood to suddenly just demand "no, no, we should go first before Garm" and proceed to go haywire and do its own thing because of a personality quirk or Araq of the Jormungand to just say "let the Surtur go ahead of us first" because it suddenly wanted to change things up.

It'd be pointless to force them to fight because each Brood is meant to be unequal due to their assigned role. There's a reason why the Tiamat Brood isn't called in first for every engagement even though it's the largest Brood they have and with the most elite troops. Would you expect the Overmind to want Daggoth and Zasz fight each other to determine who gets first dibs in attacking an enemy, when Tiamat is 650 times larger than Garm?

There’s no logical reason the Zerg couldn’t have that conflict millennia before Kerry showed up.

Sure, but then there's no logical reason why they also couldn't have resolved that before Kerrigan showed up either. It could be the reason why the Overmind decided to introduce the volatility that Kerrigan represents. It may have wanted conflict back in the Swarm again. Who knows...

The Zerg work as characters because they are both sympathetic and utterly alien.

Nah, the appeal of the Zerg is more on the alien side of things than it is the sympathetic/relatable side of things. If you wanted both, you'd find it in the Protoss.

Their personalities make them sympathetic to the audience and more than just an unfeeling alien horde. This is an example of great writing. Compare that to the Reapers in Mass Effect, who operate on nonsensical circular logic, or the Tyranids in Dawn of War II, whose campaign is literally a rehash of the imperial campaign except with all the dialogue replaced with some variation of “FEAST!”

To an extent, I think the lack of resonance is more due to the lack of proper representation of those sides than it is with due to a lack of personalities. For the Reapers, they're supposed to be beyond one's understanding or sympathy. The explanation of their motives actually does them a disservice since it's more horrifying not knowing exactly why they do what they do. Besides, all we have as a semi-consistent Reaper character to represent them is Harbinger. And because he's the antagonist, we're purposefully never given the advantage of their POV because that'd make them less of the implacable antagonists and existential threat that they're supposed to be. That's why the indoctrinated Saren is a better representation of the threat that the Reapers possess rather than the Reapers themselves.

As for the Tyranids, I wasn't aware there was a campaign for them in DOWII. You must be talking about that expansion pack. If you are, well, that campaign was exactly the same for all the races, they just changed it up by adding in race relevant dialogue and cutscenes to whichever race you chose for that single campaign rather than actually crafting a campaign specifically for that race. The Tyranids shouldn't even really speak (unless were following Genestealers or something) and they wouldn't be employed in smaller tactical engagements like the way the gameplay of DOWII tends to favour. The Necrons have the same problem as the Tyranid in that regard (though WH40K has retconned them into having more autonomy from the C'Tan now and engage in petty rivalries now) but the appeal of those races and to follow them is to expect them to be an unfeeling alien horde, not to expect sympathetic individuals to latch onto.

The only time I've ever felt sympathy for a group of unrepentent evil alien antagonists who don't have distinct characters (in a game that is) was for Star Control's Ur-Quan.

[Mislagnissa]

(EDIT: Turry, Sorry if I come across as angry and bitter, the treatment of the Zerg and Protoss by the writing is a very sore point for me. I'm sure your suggestion is well-meaning, but I believe leaving the Zerg without well-defined personalities and politics led to their ultimate narrative failure.)

Is it really a limit for the Overmind when all of it is still under the control of the Overmind?

The Overmind doesn't actively control anything, it just gives directives and prevents wars through empathy. It cannot stop the Surtur brood from being so bloodthirsty they have to be physically restrained, the Baelrog brood from terrifying other broods, or Zasz from annoying his fellows with incessant whining. The broods have flaws because they're characters in their own right. Being aware of those flaws and trying to account for them is a basic story hook.

Yeah but it's kinda ultimately meaningless on the audience member side when the Overmind is in absolute control. Sure, there's potential for chaos but it's controlled and expected chaos. There is no real threat of a cerebrate going rogue or that any of the distinct personality quirks would ever lead to something other than what the Overmind already intended. However, with the Overmind gone, I can really see the potential of such a thing.

Did you read Enumerate? This is the most important part: cerebrates having existing conflicts of personality lays the foundation for violent conflicts during the Brood Wars. Otherwise they would have no reason to fight, as in canon where the Overmind's death was a trivial speed bump that did not at all weaken the unity of the swarm until the deus ex machinas like Kerry Sue and UED rolled in one after the other. The Zerg are utterly goal-oriented: they will not fight an apocalyptic free-for-all without strong personal convictions that it is in their best interest to destroy the broods they were cooperating with last week.

Play Insurrection or Enslavers? One of the many stock plots is a cerebrate going crazy after exposure to Terran or Protoss psychic warfare.

Nah, the appeal of the Zerg is more on the alien side of things than it is the sympathetic/relatable side of things. If you wanted both, you'd find it in the Protoss.

That viewpoint is precisely what lead to the Zerg being neutered into Kerry Sue's playthings. Without personalities, flaws, desires, conflicts, and everything that makes a basic character, the Zerg are a boring waste of words. The audience will not care if there isn't something relate-able, hence they got axed in the second game to mention them. Since the cerebrates were not characters, everyone preferred Kerry to the point she became a black hole Sue whom the entire setting literally revolved around. By SC2 they've been retconned from ever existing. No-name no-personality Artanis and Zagara are more recognized than the cerebrates ever were.

If you take a look at the custom campaign Inconsummate, a couple arguments between two cerebrates gives them more character than the entire script of Episode II. Nargil's voice-acting in Insurrection gives him more character. StarCrafts, a comedy cartoon, has more interesting Zerg characters. If the cerebrates had always been written that interesting, they probably would not have been axed.

Every fanfic with a Zerg POV almost always treats them as animals subservient to human characters inserted specifically to give them a face. Yes, the Zerg are so boring and unlikable on their own that the majority of fanfics are about an ordinary human (usually a teenager) gaining control of the swarm by author fiat. That is the logical end result of not writing the Zerg as characters: they literally become children's toys. To add insult to injury, sometimes this leader is the lovechild of Jimmy and Kerry, Zagara and some human DNA lying around, or even a Cerebrate programmed to think like a human.

[Turalyon]

The Overmind doesn't actively control anything, it just gives directives and prevents wars through empathy. It cannot stop the Surtur brood from being so bloodthirsty they have to be physically restrained, the Baelrog brood from terrifying other broods, or Zasz from annoying his fellows with incessant whining. The broods have flaws because they're characters in their own right. Being aware of those flaws and trying to account for them is a basic story hook.

This is incongruous with the manual explicitly saying "the Overmind directed the actions of every creature within the Swarm". The Overmind is the gestalt consciousness of all the Zerg. It is the Zerg. The cerebrates are essentially personalities/aspects/sides of the Overmind, rather than being separate individuals. It is because of this reason that the Overmind favours Kerrigan - because although it can control her, it chose not to and valued her greater independence.

This is the most important part: cerebrates having existing conflicts of personality lays the foundation for violent conflicts during the Brood Wars. Otherwise they would have no reason to fight

Nope, that's not the only reason. Without the Overmind, the Zerg would have reason to kill each other indiscriminately or for survival of their own immediate cause because they would be no longer a collective consciousness anymore. That was the point of showing us the ZvZ in Episode II - having no connection to the Garm Brood via Zasz caused this Brood to be dangerous to other Zerg.

as in canon where the Overmind's death was a trivial speed bump that did not at all weaken the unity of the swarm until the deus ex machinas like Kerry Sue and UED rolled in one after the other.

It was only a trivial speed bump because Metzen made the Overmind's death a trivial speed bump in BW by a) having the Overmind come back, albeit a baby one, easily just like that and b) making the Zerg more OP than Sc1 even with the Overmind out-of-action/immature. Fanatic Templar made a argument about this previously and although I don't agree with some of the specifics he put forth, the argument is solid.

Do you not understand how writing works? Without personalities, flaws, desires, conflicts, and everything that makes a basic character, the Zerg are a boring waste of words

Course, but there's no one way on how writing "works". Good writing is about selling a certain concept. The Zerg as a concept are not about being sympathetic or relatable. The Zerg Overmind is the only real Zerg character you meet and a large number of people who don't like Zerg comment how unrelatable and boring the Zerg and the Overmind character is generally. Those who do like the Zerg and the Overmind, do not talk about or espouse their like of the Overmind's personality/journey but rather the sci-fi concept/idea of a collective consciousness/a force of nature being given a voice.

Every fanfic with a Zerg POV almost always treats them as animals subservient to human characters inserted specifically to give them a face.

This is just due to lack of imagination and inability to write a true alien though. Writers are human afterall and can only write about what they know best: human things. If they're going to do that, they might as well write about a human controlling aliens rather than write about aliens being human-like, right?

[Nissa]

This is incongruous with the manual explicitly saying "the Overmind directed the actions of every creature within the Swarm". The Overmind is the gestalt consciousness of all the Zerg. It is the Zerg. The cerebrates are essentially personalities/aspects/sides of the Overmind, rather than being separate individuals. It is because of this reason that the Overmind favours Kerrigan - because although it can control her, it chose not to and valued her greater independence.

Not that I'm disagreeing with your overall point, but the Overmind is not the gestalt consciousness of all the Zerg. If it were, it wouldn't need the overlords to transmit orders down the chain. Yes, it does exert absolute control over the swarm (except in Kerri's case where it specifically chooses not to), but the cerebrates are separate individuals, which is why Zasz has the job of critiquing and questioning the Overmind's decisions. As much as he is completely obedient to the Overminds, he has to be separate so he can function. Likewise, were the cerebrates not separate, they would have ceased to function when the Overmind was destroyed.




But anyway, the overall writing problem with the Zerg is that story comes from conflict, and as much as the Zerg are an interesting concept, there needs to be conflict to draw out the true storytelling potential of the Zerg characters: ie Zasz questioning things, Kerrigan doing what she wants, Protoss causin' trouble, etc. Otherwise the main Zerg players (the Overmind and the cerebrates) are only interesting as long as it takes for the player to understand how they cooperate and command the Zerg under them. Whatever happens next with the Zerg, they're going to need characters who have some form of agency if they are going to continue to be interesting/have the story told from their point of view.