How you suppose the breeds of the extended Zerg swarms are composed?

[Turalyon]

What did Blizzard originally plan to do with Dehaka?

I don't know. But there's a lot of talk about there being more to all the characters in HotS that were cut or just weren't developed to the fullest extent.

Tura, what in your opinion would solve this dilemma?

I always kinda hoped that one of the cerebrates just took off after BW, thinking that maybe as a contingency plan it would go on out until it received some kind of signal from the new Overmind. After all, the cerebrates did have their segregated roles. Alternatively, it's possible that not all of the Zerg went to Char at the beginning of Starcraft. Given that they've been exploring the universe for centuries, they might be anywhere. Probably they would have felt the Overmind's death, and have since then have been making their way back to the K Sector. This would also partially explain why Duran would have had more worlds to seed with hybrids, because some of the Zerg are more distant than others.

There are potentially many "outs" for this but all of them seem like forced narrative conceit at this point if we're considering continuing onto a Sc3. Having a secret cerebrate appear now will just feel too convenient.

If we were rewriting BW, highlighting the cerebrates then was a very viable option because the Overmind was out of the picture. I wouldn't have minded the cerebrates going at each other's throats and killing each other (Daggoth included) and one cerebrate with the characteristics of Abathur being the one to lead the new evolution of the Zerg because his way is more about efficiency/growth than outright dominance and killing. I would even allow Kerrigan to have her niche as well being a separate but alternate take on the Zerg (kinda like how Alleria turned out in Warcraft III: Frozen Throne where she leads the Undead branch known as the Forsaken).

I myself fanoned in my mind a long time ago that the Overmind that was killed on Aiur wasn't the Overmind, since I considered it a bodiless entity. What the "Overmind" was doing by manifesting on Aiur was to act as a beacon and a node that linked to an intergalactic network of Zerg to call in the scattered Zerg Swarms around the galaxy that were still looking for the Protoss. This could've been yet another faction of Zerg to add on to what I mentioned above. We'd have the true extended Zerg Swarm finally being alerted to where the Protoss are and coming to claim them and the wayward Zerg that got disconnected when the Overmind "node" on Aiur was destroyed. Being a Zerg fanatic, I remember secretly hoping that this was the threat that Kerrigan sensed at the end of BW even though it was most likely referring to Hybrid. Even though I found Duran's revelations interesting I actually didn't like the idea of Hybrid back then leading into a sequel largely because it potentially narrowed the conflict to an "all of us vs them" scenario rather than the initial appeal of the "it's all just us fighting each other" scenario that it was. Funnily enough, I was one of the very few who wasn't even imagining or wanting a sequel back then either.

[Mislagnissa]

I remember reading an article recapping Starcraft which referred to Zagara as a cerebrate, as the author seemed to be under the impression it was the term for Zerg commanders, much like Protoss have Executors, Praetors, Prelates, etc. BW custom campaigns have a long history of adding Zerg heroes, predating the brood mothers and pack leaders by many years. So I think we could run with that: Retcon the cerebrates from brain bugs to brood mothers, pack leaders, etc. Give a flashback to the epic battle between Zeratul and Zasz, where Zeratul gets his ass handed to him by Zasz until he uses a forbidden void nuke technique and only survived because a dark pylon warped him back at the last second.

Since the cerebrates never died in this retcon, but just fled or joined Kerry, we now have a means of reintroducing the dropped SC1 plot. A bunch of cerebrates get together and realize that the Zerg are stagnating and doomed to die. They need to kill Zagara, resurrect the Overmind, assimilate the Protoss, become the new xel'naga, and conquer the multiverse. Since the Terrans have no reason to be involved, let's bring back the forgotten plot point of Terran psychics being instrumental to the war effort to justify Zerg/Terran conflict. The Zerg invade the Koprulu sector again, essentially recreating the plot of SC1. The Defenders of Man replace the Sons of Korhal and Nova replaces Kerry, but it's otherwise the same. The Zerg withdraw to Char, again, and built an army of psychic doom. Then the Nerazim/Taldarim/whoever show up and starts permakilling cerebrates, forcing the Zerg on the defensive. Then the Zerg invade Aiur, and use a black magic ritual to resurrect Amon, who has been retconned into the same character as the Overmind. Also, the Protoss have rebuilt the Khala, the Conclave, and expelled the heretics without explanation. (Because screw logic!) Artanis, who has become a messiah for his ability to use both Void and Khala, sacrifices himself to kill Amon again. Also, the Zerg have Terran and Protoss allies in the Fist of Redemption (from Insurrection) and the Tal'darim (who worship Amon/Overmind). Blah blah blah.

The problem with Starcraft is that the series started only because the Zerg wanted to conquer the universe and needed humanity to do it, and the Protoss responded by glassing human worlds. The three races have no reason to ever interact without that setup. Absent a recreation of the plot of SC1, there is nowhere for SC3 to go.

[Nissa]

There are potentially many "outs" for this but all of them seem like forced narrative conceit at this point if we're considering continuing onto a Sc3. Having a secret cerebrate appear now will just feel too convenient.

Really? Having a logical reason is too convenient? If the Zerg are like roaches, they're bound to spread out in any direction they can. That, and it's also sensible for a cerebrate to have either escaped Kerrigan or have a role designed to prevent the convenient deaths of the cerebrates -- many cerebrates are rejoining into the new Overmind, they're going to need some to stay back so that they aren't all together to be conveniently decimated by the Protoss. It may even be possible that a cerebrate hid away until it could regrow its brood significantly. It's pure logic. After all, people got on Mengsk's case for being able to launch a manhunt against Raynor/Kerrigan despite his losses in BW. It'd be more or less the same for a cerebrate.

I myself fanoned in my mind a long time ago that the Overmind that was killed on Aiur wasn't the Overmind, since I considered it a bodiless entity. What the "Overmind" was doing by manifesting on Aiur was to act as a beacon and a node that linked to an intergalactic network of Zerg to call in the scattered Zerg Swarms around the galaxy that were still looking for the Protoss. This could've been yet another faction of Zerg to add on to what I mentioned above. We'd have the true extended Zerg Swarm finally being alerted to where the Protoss are and coming to claim them and the wayward Zerg that got disconnected when the Overmind "node" on Aiur was destroyed. Being a Zerg fanatic, I remember secretly hoping that this was the threat that Kerrigan sensed at the end of BW even though it was most likely referring to Hybrid. Even though I found Duran's revelations interesting I actually didn't like the idea of Hybrid back then leading into a sequel largely because it potentially narrowed the conflict to an "all of us vs them" scenario rather than the initial appeal of the "it's all just us fighting each other" scenario that it was. Funnily enough, I was one of the very few who wasn't even imagining or wanting a sequel back then either.

Well, honestly, I think all of us imagined a better sequel in our heads. While I think you have a lot of interesting ideas, I don't like your idea for the Overmind, as this basically annihilates the value of Tassadar's sacrifice. On the other hand, it makes more sense for Kerrigan to feel threatened by other Zerg, rather than hybrids. Unless she has some sort of inkling about Duran.

The problem with Starcraft is that the series started only because the Zerg wanted to conquer the universe and needed humanity to do it, and the Protoss responded by glassing human worlds. The three races have no reason to ever interact without that setup. Absent a recreation of the plot of SC1, there is nowhere for SC3 to go.

Not quite true. There's potential for Terran-centered and non-RTS games. And, assuming SC2 gets thrown in the garbage, a proper SC1 sequel.

[ragnarok]

I don't know. But there's a lot of talk about there being more to all the characters in HotS that were cut or just weren't developed to the fullest extent.

You can blame that on Blizzard being too damn lazy to put any effort in

[Turalyon]

Really? Having a logical reason is too convenient?

Yes, convenient. If we are to follow on from before and make Sc3 with the direction of a lost cerebrate coming to the fore, it's just as bad as having the Overmind coming back again (like it did in BW), especially when it was said that all cerebrates are dead now. And yes, while I appreciate the irony of Sc2 introducing such huge retcons and setting up a precedent that something like introducing the cerebrates again should be "no big deal", I'm just beyond caring at this point. It's all just artifice for the sake of continuation.

I don't like your idea for the Overmind, as this basically annihilates the value of Tassadar's sacrifice.

Yeah, in retrospect, I somewhat agree with you too now. The Overmind coming back so easily in BW (even though it doesn't come back fully) attests to not only devaluing Tassadar's sacrifice, but the consequence/impact of the Overminds death as well. It's partly why the Zerg have devolved into being more as a plot device than one of three major races with a unique voice.

That idea I gave came from way, way back ago before BW was even released where I was more inclined to fanon and at the height of my Zerg fandom. I didn't think at the time it would devalue Tassadar's sacrifice (or rather the consequence of his act), because the local Zerg contingent would still be forced to start evolving and develop along a different path (with or without Kerrigan being in the mix). This development would've been my preferred alternate concept for "primal" Zerg than the one we got in HotS.

On the other hand, it makes more sense for Kerrigan to feel threatened by other Zerg, rather than hybrids.

It's not just the generic horror about the Zerg that Kerrigan is threatened by. Her biggest fear is being controlled again. Of all the things she says in BW, I believe this is one of the only things she is ever actually honest about. It governs her revenge against Mengsk and informs all her actions in BW. Her malice toward the Protoss is because they too want to "control" her in some aspect (even if it's just in the more blunt form of killing her), and she knows this. She's done being the victim of abuse and the plaything of others, it's her turn now! (As you can probably tell, I actually liked BW Kerrigan's character back in the day, too)

[Mislagnissa]

Not quite true. There's potential for Terran-centered and non-RTS games.

Starcraft was about the conflict between the Terrans, Protoss and Zerg. Now you're suggesting game concepts which might as well be a separate IP. We never even got a decent RTS campaign beyond Rebel Yell, which was the highest point of the entire series.

And, assuming SC2 gets thrown in the garbage, a proper SC1 sequel.

There are two problems with that.

Firstly, any sequels will most likely be DLC for SC2 and WoL is going free to play. New players will be introduced that way. Introducing a reboot as a paid DLC would undoubtedly confuse them much like the countless superhero franchise reboots in the last decade. Not an impassable barrier, but it would need to be handled with care.

Secondly, SC1 is hardly a solid foundation for a sequel and nostalgia goggles do not fix that. The plots of Episodes 2 and 3 are poorly written compared to Episode 1, and deserve to be rewritten to better showcase the narrative potential of the Zerg and Protoss as protagonists in their own right rather than playing second fiddle to Raynor and Kerry. The plot of Brood War is full of plot holes and retcons (Shakuras, UED, Duran, etc), and it destroys the hierarchies and power bases of the three factions to allow Kerry to take over the sector. A logical sequel to BW would be Kerry fighting Duran, while everybody else is ignored because they have no military, and regardless of who wins it would be a bad end for everyone else.

Something like the shared universe outline "Enumerate" (links: original forum thread, timeline, full document) provides a stable foundation while remaining true to the original premise. Long story short, it supposes Kerry died on Tarsonis and keeps the Zerg as the main antagonists rather than introducing new villains willy-nilly.

[Nissa]

Yes, convenient. If we are to follow on from before and make Sc3 with the direction of a lost cerebrate coming to the fore, it's just as bad as having the Overmind coming back again (like it did in BW), especially when it was said that all cerebrates are dead now. And yes, while I appreciate the irony of Sc2 introducing such huge retcons and setting up a precedent that something like introducing the cerebrates again should be "no big deal", I'm just beyond caring at this point. It's all just artifice for the sake of continuation.

Well, bear in mind when I talk about the reintroduction of cerebrates, I'm assuming a sequel written by people who care. And no, I still think you're wrong about it being convenient. It is pure logic that not all of the Zerg would be in the K Sector, and some might be far enough away to take a significant amount of time to arrive, as well as take more time to quietly observe before acting. This would enable the Zerg to have more agency, as a true, pure-blooded Zerg could begin to make rational, simple decisions that are in the Zerg's best interest. Kerrigan/UED/loser Amon were all trying to control the Zerg for their own purposes, and having a cerebrate return would cut away alternate motivations.

Then again, I'm generally assuming that SC2 is not canon. If SC2 is canon, then Starcraft is dead, no matter what they do. Your response to my use of cerebrates appears to take this fact to heart.

Yeah, in retrospect, I somewhat agree with you too now. The Overmind coming back so easily in BW (even though it doesn't come back fully) attests to not only devaluing Tassadar's sacrifice, but the consequence/impact of the Overminds death as well. It's partly why the Zerg have devolved into being more as a plot device than one of three major races with a unique voice.

That idea I gave came from way, way back ago before BW was even released where I was more inclined to fanon and at the height of my Zerg fandom. I didn't think at the time it would devalue Tassadar's sacrifice (or rather the consequence of his act), because the local Zerg contingent would still be forced to start evolving and develop along a different path (with or without Kerrigan being in the mix). This development would've been my preferred alternate concept for "primal" Zerg than the one we got in HotS.

I actually don't mind the new Overmind too much, as the cerebrates trying to form another one makes sense, as well as the conflict it creates for Kerrigan. It's still a bit of a cheat, but it's logical enough to work. Dude, a cerebrate's return would indeed fix the unique voice problem you're complaining about.

It's not just the generic horror about the Zerg that Kerrigan is threatened by. Her biggest fear is being controlled again. Of all the things she says in BW, I believe this is one of the only things she is ever actually honest about. It governs her revenge against Mengsk and informs all her actions in BW. Her malice toward the Protoss is because they too want to "control" her in some aspect (even if it's just in the more blunt form of killing her), and she knows this. She's done being the victim of abuse and the plaything of others, it's her turn now! (As you can probably tell, I actually liked BW Kerrigan's character back in the day, too)

I feel that in terms of personality, Kerrigan was consistent through SC-BW. Everything she did makes sense from her standpoint. Honestly, her desire for more control over her life is really relatable and powerful. It made her a better villain.


Magmags, you are obsessed with killing off Kerri on Tarsonis. This messes up the SC1 storyline, because she's the plot manifestation of the Zerg's original intent: infest human psychics to learn how to get Protoss. She's the reason why Raynor/Tassadar/Duke all came to Char, so getting rid of her would rob most of the Zerg missions of meaning. Simply killing Kerrigan off is a bad idea.

[Mislagnissa]

I actually don't mind the new Overmind too much, as the cerebrates trying to form another one makes sense, as well as the conflict it creates for Kerrigan. It's still a bit of a cheat, but it's logical enough to work. Dude, a cerebrate's return would indeed fix the unique voice problem you're complaining about.

The Overmind being resurrected by the merging of cerebrates is a retcon, and one which is directly responsible for the Zerg's eventual decay into mediocrity. Originally the Overmind was a bodiless entity, and the plot demanded it assume physical form because otherwise there would be no way to kill it and the Zerg would win. Since the Overmind (and its cerebrates) is a function of the Zerg's telepathy and genome, like the Khala is for the Protoss, then it is physically impossible to kill it because it is not actually a living creature. You can certainly cause severe brain damage to the Swarms through a powerful psychic attack, such as assaulting a hive mind locus with void magic, but this injury will eventually regenerate unless you exterminate all Zerg in the universe.

That's more logical than anything else I've seen and it conveniently justifies a continuous state of war to churn out sequels.

Magmags, you are obsessed with killing off Kerri on Tarsonis. This messes up the SC1 storyline, because she's the plot manifestation of the Zerg's original intent: infest human psychics to learn how to get Protoss. She's the reason why Raynor/Tassadar/Duke all came to Char, so getting rid of her would rob most of the Zerg missions of meaning. Simply killing Kerrigan off is a bad idea.

It does not mess up the story line. The game portrayal is at complete odds with the manual. Kerry is magically the only psychic out of many billions of humans to be infested (don't give me crap about the retcons justifying this after the fact). She is never cloned into an army as is customary for every Zerg breed.

Kerry is a plot device who only serves three purposes that affect the narrative: she produces psychic dreams that attract the dark templar earlier than they would otherwise arrive (the DT were already aware of Zerg through the deep space probes, and warbands began investigating K-sec to test their mettle), she acts as a super soldier to fight the Protoss (hence easily replaceable by an army of Zerg clones derived from Terran gene stock), and she produces psychic storms (also easily replaceable by a Terran-derived Zerg monstrosity). The inclusion of Raynor and Duke has no impact on the plot, and their characters are better served by keeping them in Dominion space fighting Mengsk's authority and the infestors a la WoL, respectively.

The original manual said that <1% of humans are psychic, so the Zerg have millions of victims to capture from across the sector (assuming a total population in the billions). Using those psychics, the Zerg have enough genetic diversity to build an army of psychic doom. The Zerg will certainly leave some broods behind to exterminate the survivors (manual quote: "The Zerg were innately selective as to which species they consumed, ensuring that at every stage of their development they were at the top of the proverbial food chain. Any race that the Zerg came across that was deemed unworthy of assimilation was eradicated to further purify the strains."), which justifies the Terrans remaining involved in the conflict (though an alliance with the Protoss is unlikely until much later in the conflict, given that the Protoss glassed inhabited planets, are generally racist and live fairly far away).

Read the links in my signature, it elaborates on all this.

[Turalyon]

And no, I still think you're wrong about it being convenient. It is pure logic that not all of the Zerg would be in the K Sector, and some might be far enough away to take a significant amount of time to arrive, as well as take more time to quietly observe before acting. This would enable the Zerg to have more agency, as a true, pure-blooded Zerg could begin to make rational, simple decisions that are in the Zerg's best interest. Kerrigan/UED/loser Amon were all trying to control the Zerg for their own purposes, and having a cerebrate return would cut away alternate motivations.

Hmmmm... Using this train of logic would actually justify my original, long-ago fanon of the Overmind still being alive/not actually being killed by Tassadar. I already agreed that bringing back the Overmind in any way was somewhats spurious in the same vein that bringing back the cerebrates would also be spurious, now you're backflipping by only specifying it's ok for the cerebrates but not the Overmind.

I actually don't mind the new Overmind too much, as the cerebrates trying to form another one makes sense, as well as the conflict it creates for Kerrigan. It's still a bit of a cheat, but it's logical enough to work. Dude, a cerebrate's return would indeed fix the unique voice problem you're complaining about.

I agree with Misla's response to this. The way the the Overmind is brought back in the BW narrative is what, in part, renders the whole race into a plot device (ie: something to be fought over and used) rather than a distinct third race.

Magmags, you are obsessed with killing off Kerri on Tarsonis. This messes up the SC1 storyline, because she's the plot manifestation of the Zerg's original intent: infest human psychics to learn how to get Protoss. She's the reason why Raynor/Tassadar/Duke all came to Char, so getting rid of her would rob most of the Zerg missions of meaning. Simply killing Kerrigan off is a bad idea.

It does not mess up the story line. The game portrayal is at complete odds with the manual. Kerry is magically the only psychic out of many billions of humans to be infested (don't give me crap about the retcons justifying this after the fact). She is never cloned into an army as is customary for every Zerg breed.

I'm sorry, but Nissa's argument is objectively more solid than yours. Kerrigan was not the exact predestined determinant the Overmind was looking for, but she was the one it had happened to find at a moment of opportunity.

Kerry is a plot device who only serves three purposes that affect the narrative

No. The idea of "the determinant" is the plot device, not Kerrigan specifically. She just happens to be the determinant, as deemed by the Overmind.

The original manual said that <1% of humans are psychic, so the Zerg have millions of victims to capture from across the sector (assuming a total population in the billions).

This is also wrong since the Terran population being in the billions is a retcon in Sc2. That it's rare and difficult to find is the reason why the Zerg haven't captured a human psionic before the events of Sc1 started because otherwise we would've seen evidence of it and that the Zerg wouldn't be bothered with the Terrans nor be attracted to the Psi emitters. If it did find a Terran psionic before the events of Sc1 started proper, then the Sc1 story we got wouldn't have played out as it did. It was only via sheer luck and coincidence (watsonian explanation)/ contrived coincidence (Doylist explanation) that it found Kerrigan when it did. Indeed, if it was so easy to find a Terran with psionics and assimilate them, it would not even be necessary to even include the Terrans or their perspectives in the main campaign at all.

[Nissa]

Hmmmm... Using this train of logic would actually justify my original, long-ago fanon of the Overmind still being alive/not actually being killed by Tassadar. I already agreed that bringing back the Overmind in any way was somewhats purious in the same vein that bringing back the cerebrates would also be spurious, now you're backflipping by only specifying it's ok for the cerebrates but not the Overmind.

I think you're confused because you're misinterpreting.

No, there's no backflipping. I disagree with your original use of the Overmind simply because I don't think that was the way the Overmind was truly portrayed in the games. Yes, the way they did it had problems, but the cerebrates merging together to create a new Overmind makes complete sense, from there point of view. The real issue concerning your complaint is that the UED tried to use the Overmind for its own purposes, creating the whole no-agency thing. I'm saying that the cerebrate part makes sense (despite never being properly shown). The UED part, well, that's a separate issue.

To be fair, that doesn't bother me much either, because in a way the Zerg have always been that kind of race, only with the Overmind at the head. The only difference is that the Overmind fought for the Zerg, while everyone else fought for themselves. Which is another reason why I'd like a cerebrate to come back. That way he can confront Kerrigan for taking the Swarm into a direction it was never intended.

Originally the Overmind was a bodiless entity,...

Citation needed. The Overmind did use the term "made manifest" in relation to using the Khaydarin crystals, but we have no idea how literally this is meant, given how flowery the Overmind's language is. And also given that he has the image of a giant eyeball suspended by fleshy bits to some sort of outer encasing. Likewise, the merging of the cerebrates still doesn't bother me even then, because they should still have been able to possibly remove the Khaydarin crystals and use them to "manifest" the Overmind, if they needed to.

My real complaint over time is that the Khaydarin crystals were never defined. We don't know what they do or why they were necessary.